How Far is Too Far?

I think good marksmanship and knowledge of your firearm and its ballistics is awesome; however, what I gather from members of this site is that for the majority of hunters, anything over 200 yards or so is too far. Also, magnum calibers are difficult for many people to shoot accurately, and so the majority of hunters should strive to place their shots with a rifle they can shoot without flinching, meaning non magnum calibers. HOWEVER, if you're confident in your abilities and you can hit the vitals at 500 yards, I guess nobody can stop you...still, is it ethical? Pretty big margin for error in shots that long. Its ok to hit a target at 500 yards 6 inches low and 12 inches to the right, but a game animal is still a living creature and deserves to be taken humanely. Just my opinion of course.

I think the thing you are seeing is a lot of new shooters / hunters are on here asking about getting a Magnum rifle with a big target scope so they can kill deer at 500 yards.

The point that many of us are trying to make to newbys is that buying a .300 Manglem doesn't make you a hunter, or a rifleman capable of making humain shots on any game animal at 400 - 500 yards.

The skilled rifleman who can make a 500 yard shot with a .300 Whizzem is also the same person that could make the same shot with a .308, 30-06, or .270.

And in the event they shoot a deer at a more normal range of 50 to 200 yards, the lesser calibers won't turn the deer into a hair covered leather bag full of bloodshot meat and hamburger mush.

rc

Thank You RC...

I sometimes do hunt with a large magnum caliber, and I am not afraid to take shots over 300 yards with it if everything lines up right (I can get a good stable rest, winds cooperate, etc., etc.). Now I don't advocate taking stupid, uneducated shots like those mentioned in the Weatherby thread, but my loads are chronographed, and run through a ballistics program, I know my clicks, I have a range finder, and I shoot plenty enough to know my capabilities.

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Obviously, you're a meticulous, ethical, analytical person who makes responsible decisions.

You're not the sort of person at whom any of these reactions are aimed.

If someone practices field shooting, knows the limitations of equipment and nature, and makes ethical hunting choices, magnum rounds offer a flatter trajectory and better velocity for better expansion at longer ranges.

If someone doesn't practice except for a few shots off a bench at 100 yards, doesn't consider wind, hunting ethics, or any other factors, and expects a powerful round to just magically make up for all of that, then he is the person who will hear what you call "bashing".

I’m confused by those that feel some magical distance is considered ‘too far’. When folks say that anything over 200 yards is too far does that mean to be ‘ethical’ they MUST pass on a shot at 201yds? If no then what about 210 or 220yds? Where is the ‘ethical’ cut off point?

As for ‘magnum calibers are difficult for many people to shoot accurately, and so the majority of hunters should strive to place their shots with a rifle they can shoot without flinching, meaning non magnum calibers ’ maybe folks should devote more time to learning how to shoot properly before passing judgment on others. A bad flinch with a .270 will botch a shot at 50yds too.

If a person has proven to themselves that they can make “that shot” on paper, steel, rock, what have you, under similar field conditions, knows the range, wind, angle, velocity…(you get the picture) I say take the shot. However if you are unsure don’t.

I hunt with a buddy and we take turns spotting and shooting, there is no bravado involved, we discuss the shot, read the conditions, and do the math, and wait for the opportunity to present itself.
~z

I'm one of those Magnum fans...but I have limits. I keep all of my shots under 300 yards if possible...I just know when one is too far for my ability. I have limits on range with all of my rifles, from .22lr to my 300 Win Mag/7mm Rem Mag. I've put several deer DRT at around 250-280 yards.

Basically, it boils down to practice and knowing your rifle.

~z said:

I’m confused by those that feel some magical distance is considered ‘too far’. When folks say that anything over 200 yards is too far does that mean to be ‘ethical’ they MUST pass on a shot at 201yds? If no then what about 210 or 220yds? Where is the ‘ethical’ cut off point?

As for ‘magnum calibers are difficult for many people to shoot accurately, and so the majority of hunters should strive to place their shots with a rifle they can shoot without flinching, meaning non magnum calibers ’ maybe folks should devote more time to learning how to shoot properly before passing judgment on others. A bad flinch with a .270 will botch a shot at 50yds too.

If a person has proven to themselves that they can make “that shot” on paper, steel, rock, what have you, under similar field conditions, knows the range, wind, angle, velocity…(you get the picture) I say take the shot. However if you are unsure don’t.

I hunt with a buddy and we take turns spotting and shooting, there is no bravado involved, we discuss the shot, read the conditions, and do the math, and wait for the opportunity to present itself.
~z

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Why so defensive there, ~z? I think you're taking my statement a bit too literally. 200 yards is a guideline, a rule of thumb, a distance that many average hunters should PROBABLY not exceed unless conditions are perfect.
How is mentioning the fact that some people flinch passing judgement on others? Last time I checked, Mag calibers make many folks flinch. I repeat, MANY, not ALL. If you can hit a clay pigeon at 2000 yards in a typhoon with your .50 BMG, good for you. 99% of hunters can't. Nothing against the Magnums, people just need to know their limitations, that's all.

Most people wouldn't know 200 yards in the woods if it bit them on the buttocks. I have paced off many a "500-yard" shot that turned out to be around 150 yards.

At the same time, I had no problem putting myself within 35 yards of a deer this season and doing the deed with a .45 caliber flintlock.

Sorry don’t mean to appear defensive, Weedy. That was not meant to be directed at you. Apologizes.

I just grow weary of some folks claiming that anything past their comfort range is somehow ‘unethical’ for the rest of us. Some folks put in the time and energy to excel at shooting and therefore have the skill and comfort level to extend their range.

I have not known magnum calibers to make folks flinch, but I have known inexperience and/or poor instruction to cause it.

Gotta agree, people need to know their limitations but I would like to add that their limitations are not everyone’s. It is not a one size fits all world.
~z

Its all about knowing your rifle an skills....one guy can put a game animal down at 400 yds......another guy sneaks within 50 yds an then gut shoots it, or misses. Stay within your skills, if you don't practice at 200, 300, 400...yds. then you shouldn't even think about taking a shot.

"Too far" has to do mostly with shooter skill than anything else, IMO. Sure, cartridge capability is part of the equation, but judging distance, wind and trajectory all come together as part of a shooter's skill.

I wilfully, deliberately and with malice aforethought worked at making myself skilled with a .30-'06, mostly because of the known skill-level of my father and his brother. I wanted to be able to say that if some critter is inside of 500 yards, it's mine. They could, so why not me, too?

Lotsa time, effort and gunpowder went into the deal, for sure.

Joe Average doesn't get all that heavily into it, SFAIK. No real reason to, actually...

"Too far" has to do mostly with shooter skill than anything else, IMO.

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Good judgment, too.

"Because I can" doesn't necessarily add up to "I should, in this particular situation."

But again, the OP sounds like he exercises very good judgment.

Most people wouldn't know 200 yards in the woods if it bit them on the buttocks. I have paced off many a "500-yard" shot that turned out to be around 150 yards.

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LOL

In country with a lot of canyons and ridges, it's really hard, too, even if you can see a long distance.

I hike around with a rangefinder occasionally, for practice. Sometimes I can guess within 10 yards. Sometimes, I'm WAY off.

The human brain wasn't designed to estimate distances with no consistent points of reference. 150 yards seems can seem really far away. Or 350 can seem pretty close.

Years ago, I was sent to the Artillery Officer Candidate School at Fort Sill for my sins (they were pretty bad sins.) We trained intensively on range estimation and other skills. And you're dead on -- the ground you're looking over dramatically affects your estimate of range.

"It's a wise man that knows his limitations" (Clint Eastwood)

~z...thanks, no offense meant to you either.
I know this thread isn't about what is and is not humane, but I guess I can say that most of us have either seen a wounded animal, or found a dead one that was the result of a bad shot, archery included. Shoot, I took a front leg off my very first deer when I was 14 at under 50 yards because my rear sight was knocked out of zero on the trip in and I failed to check it. I still remember that deer stopping and staring at me like "why did you shoot my leg off?" before I finally dropped him. Wow, I felt terrible though! Ever since then I only take shots I'm 99% sure of, I check all my equipment thoroughly, and do everything else I can to prevent another situation like that. Sorry to get so far off the main topic guys (and gals) but that's really why I don't take long shots, that's why I tend to discourage most hunters from taking long shots, and that's why I myself stay away from magnums (not necessary at the ranges I shoot at). Keep in mind I'm only speaking for myself here!
I would, however, love to get a .300 Win Mag and try some long range shots. I should have gone to sniper school instead of being a 91X...sigh. When it comes to Taliban and Al Queida, humanity Shmumanity.

My uncle sighted in a rifle for a hunter. The hunter returned sometime later, complaining about the rifle. He'd missed a deer at 300 yards.

So, off to the 100-yard range and benchrest.

"Yeah! That's how far off that deer was!"

"That's 100 yards."

"Can't be! It's every bit of 300."

And, sure enough, in shooting to check, the POI was the same 2" high at 100 yards as all the Eatman family has used. And three surveyor's chains (used in setting up the range) is still 300 feet--which last I heard equals 100 yards.

Education: A "chain" is a 100-foot steel tape used in highway surveying, with one guy pulling and one guy in back. "Tail chain" with a survey crew was my first job, back in 1952. It's not the most exciting thing an 18-year-old can do. But you get pretty good at knowing the length of your steps. For years, I could walk 100 steps and be within 1% of 100 yards. You learn to guesstimate distance, as well.

But laser rangefinders are neat.

IMHO, Too Far is the point where placing the round in the limited circle on the target for an effective kill exceeds one, a combination or all of the following considerations:
The rifle's repeatable accuracy, the shooter's sustained ability, his stable stance or lack of, the bullet's necessary velocity for positive upset, power and penetration, correctly estimating windage and holdover, ability of recovering the harvested quarry, and the time to do so.

The definition of "too far" changes for a given shooter and a particular set of conditions. It is the responsibility of the shooter to recognize what his limitations and the limitations of the equipment in the current conditions.

IMHO, Too Far is the point where placing the round in the limited circle on the target for an effective kill exceeds one, a combination or all of the following considerations:
The rifle's repeatable accuracy, the shooter's sustained ability, his stable stance or lack of, the bullet's necessary velocity for positive upset, power and penetration, correctly estimating windage and holdover, ability of recovering the harvested quarry, and the time to do so.

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Good definition.
There are many hunters who will say a head or neck shot is the only way to go and have no idea how small a target that is to make an ethical kill. Others are pleased as punch if their one week a year gun will put 3 rds into a 6" bull at 100 yds and some just mathamaticly reduce the range to 25 or 50 yds and then use some ballistic table to project out to infinity.
Handguns bows and muzzle loaders all come with their own set of limits.
There are certainly those who buy a big gun and think it has magical powers but there are just as many who will think the same of a 30-30 or you fill in the blank.
I have said before that ethics mean more than distance and caliber, bait, fences, breeding, even $ when competing for a spot in the book has ethical repercussions in my view.

I am not personally a fan of "magnum" calibers or long distance hunting, but whatever floats YOUR boat is fine with me.
"You" are not the problem, but it is the person that reads a thread about long range hunting and immediately goes out to shoot a deer at 500 yards with absolutely no preparation whats so ever. I guess it is those kind of guys that keep a tracking service in business.