Designed to be carried Cocked and Locked: Not!

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The thumb safety is for something? It is on the Hi Power as well. It is obvious that the intent was for the gun to be carried in Cond. 1 at some time and is as safe as any handgun out there.
Here there are a few in the SO that carry 1911 and some 15 yrs ago I remember the PD in Albq. NM carried a lot of 1911. I have also seen them in many other LEO holsters but I can't remember all the depts. I agree it is certainly not in the majority. The ones I have noticed have all been cond.1.
I guess I can't really understand the debate, his middle name was Moses wasn't it?
 
rellascout said:
Every single 1911 I own was designed to be carried cocked and locked.

"facts" as they are being presented here are like lies. There are 3 kinds.

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."

Replace statistics with your and the OPs "facts". :cool:
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No, the 1911 that you own was NOT designed to be carried cocked and locked. Just because it has a thumb safety. The "design" was that it was carried without a round in the chamber. Then, when the military individual with the weapon felt he needed to draw the weapon, they would chamber it and go to condition 1 as they moved forward with their close quarters. The weapon was drawn and ready to go. Condition 0 was next. After the threat was done; minutes or hours later; the magazine was released, the chambered round was ejected, the hammer was lowered, the ejected round was put back in the magazine, and the magazine went back into the gun in condition 3.

THAT is what the 1911 was INTENDED for and how it was to be carried. It was not designed for civilian use. Now, if as a civilian, you want to carry it condition 1; cocked and locked; because you consider your potential threat to be possible 24/7; compared to the military that had specific threats that are much different than civilians; I.e. No one is sneaking up on a military member on the battle field to rob them, rape them, or car jack them; then you are free to carry your 1911 any way you want to. When I've carried it, I've always carried it condition 2. No one is saying that you can't carry it condition 1. The OP is simply stating a fact that the weapon was NOT designed to be carried condition 1. Condition 1; and 0; in a military environment is different than a civilian environment. And the MILITARY environment is what it was DESIGNED for.
 
No, the 1911 that you own was NOT designed to be carried cocked and locked. Just because it has a thumb safety. The "design" was that it was carried without a round in the chamber. Then, when the military individual with the weapon felt he needed to draw the weapon, they would chamber it and go to condition 1 as they moved forward with their close quarters. The weapon was drawn and ready to go. Condition 0 was next. After the threat was done; minutes or hours later; the magazine was released, the chambered round was ejected, the hammer was lowered, the ejected round was put back in the magazine, and the magazine went back into the gun in condition 3.

THAT is what the 1911 was INTENDED for and how it was to be carried. It was not designed for civilian use. Now, if as a civilian, you want to carry it condition 1; cocked and locked; because you consider your potential threat to be possible 24/7; compared to the military that had specific threats that are much different than civilians; I.e. No one is sneaking up on a military member on the battle field to rob them, rape them, or car jack them; then you are free to carry your 1911 any way you want to. When I've carried it, I've always carried it condition 2. No one is saying that you can't carry it condition 1. The OP is simply stating a fact that the weapon was NOT designed to be carried condition 1. Condition 1; and 0; in a military environment is different than a civilian environment. And the MILITARY environment is what it was DESIGNED for.
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Dan Wesson does not make guns for the Military. They did spec out and design the 1911 I carry cocked and locked. Therefore one can conclude that your statements have no relevance to the pistol I am referring to. You are making an assumption in order to prove your point. I have just demonstrated that assumption to be false. Therefore your argument is false even if your "facts" are true. This is simple logic. The nature and rules of syllogism disprove your statements without addressing any of the "facts". You are drawing false conclusion by employing poor inferences which you have not and cannot establish. Logic FTW

See you are proving my point. You are looking at the concept "designed" and "intended" in myopic terms. You believe incorrectly that these terms are cut and dry. That there is only one meaning and therefore only one answer. The reality is that this could not be further from the truth.

Context has everything to do with meaning. Your choice of words, syllogism and argument or proof structure has as much to do with the truth value of your statements as the "facts" you claim. I can prove your point to be logically false without knowing anything about the 1911, its history or how it is used.

Your statements only prove to reinforce my statement about truths and statistics. "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics (truth)."
 
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No, Dan Wesson designed their 1911 to be a CLONE of the original MILITARY 1911. They designed it, as most clones have, to be interchangeable with many parts; emulate the "Original"; and thus be a good marketing tool. Going into the realm of clones doesn't change what the original, that the clone was based on, was designed for.

If a 3rd world company decides to make a "CLONE" of an F-150 Ford Pickup truck, they aren't making it with the thought of: "Hey, this is designed for teenagers to take their date to the prom". No, they didn't "DESIGN" anything. They simply made a clone that they hoped they could sell; off of the reputation and success of the ORIGINAL. Not to say that you can't use a pickup truck to go to the prom. Or to use it as a way for you, the spouse, and 2 kids to go on a cross country trip. You can do whatever you want with the truck. You own it. But don't b.s. or rationalize and try to say that the truck was "Designed" for anything other than hauling crap in the bed of the truck. That's what it was "Designed" for.
 
No, Dan Wesson designed their 1911 to be a CLONE of the original MILITARY 1911. They designed it, as most clones have, to be interchangeable with many parts; emulate the "Original"; and thus be a good marketing tool. Going into the realm of clones doesn't change what the original, that the clone was based on, was designed for.
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So you are actually going to argue that every single modern clone of the 1911 was designed, developed and manufactured with the original intended purpose as their goal?

We are all going to be riding around on horse back with a low riding leg holster? :banghead:

Dan Wesson designs and builds modern versions of the 1911 for the commerical market. The original military intended use is not part of the equation. It is not a clone it is an adaptation. There is a difference IMHO.
 
rellascout said:
There are none that use a 1911 as a standard issue sidearm. If you know of one please point it out. I know some small localities allow them to be carried but most of the time that just means that they are on an approved list.
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Tacoma, WA PD issued Kimber Pro Carry IIs to officers that chose them in the early 2000s. (2003?)
LAPD SWAT issues Kimber TLE IIs to it's officers.
FBI HRT and SWAT issues Springfield TRP-Pro to it agents. I'm sure there are others, but that's just off the top of my head.
 
Thanks but still a very small sampling and 2 of the 3 were tactical groups. Also you have not given any info on how they were carried not that it matters.

Those who care are simply clinging to some false sense of righteousness. It is really amusing.
 
rellascout; Dan Wesson did not "Design" their 1911. They BUILT their 1911. The 1911 was "DESIGNED" 100 years ago. You are correct that they can "Adapt" their "New Model". But that doesn't mean it isn't a clone. A clone is defined "technically" as being able to interchange parts with the original that it was based upon. Of course, many companies alter (Adapt) some of theirs so they can't simply interchange all parts. But it's still a clone. Dan Wesson didn't "Design" their 1911. if they had, they wouldn't even call it a 1911. They call it a 1911 because it is BASED on the 1911 military sidearm. And they do this for marketing purposes to get you to buy it. If they called it a 2010, it probably wouldn't sell as well. And if it looked different, from the ORIGINAL DESIGN, it probably wouldn't sell too well.

Point is; shoot the damn thing anyway you want. But the truth and facts remain unchanged. The gun was DESIGNED as a military weapon to be carried a certain way. And just because you want to carry it differently; and possibly even have better reasons for carrying it differently; doesn't change what the weapon was "DESIGNED" to to do or how it was to be carried.
 
the OP concerns whether the 1911 was DESIGNED to be carried cocked and locked.

The question is not how the weapon was USED (or sold to the Army)

The only reasons given explaining the ability to lock the hammer back (jumpy horse) make no sense as the same feature was incorporated into the Hi Power.
 
Why are so many concerned with what the military's carry requirements were/are (unless you're carrying one for Uncle)? At one time, I was not allowed to wear headphones while jogging and hang gliding was prohibited. Now that my ID is blue, I can do both while carrying C1.
 
Point is; shoot the damn thing anyway you want. But the truth and facts remain unchanged. The gun was DESIGNED as a military weapon to be carried a certain way. And just because you want to carry it differently; and possibly even have better reasons for carrying it differently; doesn't change what the weapon was "DESIGNED" to to do or how it was to be carried.
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Yet you and those advocating this point have not proven it logically.

Again you are only clinging to your myopic view of "designed"

As for your clone remark aren't 80 Series Colts 1991s? :neener:
 
As for your clone remark aren't 80 Series Colts 1991s?
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One of mine says Combat Elite and the other Gold Cup NM, so I guess they're not 1911s. I wonder if they were designed to carried C1?
 
If it was designed to be carried with the hammer down. Why does it have a safety?
In USPSA competition and IDPA the 1911 is started cocked and locked. If this was considered unsafe, the handgun rules would have been changed.
The military and LEO training is minimal when compared to a citizen who wants to shoot well. Thats one reason for the empty chamber hammer down carry. Even with this restriction solders often forgot to remove the magazine before racking the slide to clear the weapon. I have heard of many more accidents caused by a supposedly safe empty chamber, and lowering a hammer down on a live round, then any accidents caused by locked and cocked.

Just because the military does something, does not make it correct.
 
When I was in the army, carrying a .45 with a round chambered would get you a chewing out unless there was incoming fire. If you got caught carrying cocked and locked, it would cost you a stripe and a month's pay. If the gun was fired, as soon as the threat was over, you unloaded it and started over with an empty chamber.

How do you resolve such idiocy? We simply left our junk 1911s with the armorer/supply sgt on the fire base. I cannot once recall when a .45 would neutralize the threats that killed and wounded us every day. We just carried extra frags and mags to replace the 5 or 6 pounds that the .45 took up with no benefit.
 
See, this is why I prefer DA guns. :neener:

I always felt safe with my 1911 in a thumb snap holster with the strap in front of the hammer. Bet that wasn't designed by the military, though. Now days, I stick to DA guns that operate on the first shot similar to my revolvers. 1911s are great for games, but I think DA is better for carry.
 
I've lost track of who wants what but feel certain that the gun was designed to be carried both ways depending on the circumstances. In the private sector as personal defence or LE or in a military situation requiring rifles to be loaded I would say the 1911 should be cond.1.
The difference to me would be when the military mission is complete the chambers are cleared and in civilian or LE they aren't.
To say that it wasn't designed to be carried cond.1 at some time even if originally only in the hand with an obvious safety feature that only works in that condition is stretching it IMO.
 
Your OP is inaccurate because as others point out the Armys initial field manual procedure does not equal design intent.
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I would like those who hold that position to show period documents showing the true design intent.

If you read the references I have cited, you will find the revisionist history is not supported.

No one creates a FM manual, and Operation Requirements Document, any document, in a vacuum. The Soldiers who wrote the 1913 manual would certainly had access to John Browning and the Officers who determined the tactics and doctrine of the day. I cannot prove that they did, but a couple of pages over is a line drawing of a prototype M1910, which indicates to me that the Logistics group were involved in testing and development.

The pre WWI Army was 98,000 men, half of whom were overseas. http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAarmy.htm That is a very small organization and I am confident that lines of access between Officers and organizations were short and personal. Heck, I expect everybody knew everyone.

In today’s world designers, testers, and users rub elbows through out the design, test, and fielding of new systems. What I see in these preWW1 documents is different format, but similiar processes. The same things were going on in 1905-1911, but at a much more personal level.

As for those who say, the Horse argument does not make sense, therefore it is bogus.

You are not a decision maker. You were not on the Smalls Arms Board making the Procurement Decisions for the US Army. This was an issue before the board, by a voting Board member. And because this was a Go-No-Go point for the Cavalry, John Browning included the thumb safety lock, for the reasons previously stated.

You want to carry your M1911 cocked and locked?. Well it is your decision, not original design intent, not SOP per the recollections of the Military here.

If you shoot yourself in the foot, it will be all because of you. John Browning did not make you carry your M1911 cocked and locked. The Army did not make you carry the thing with the grip safety deactivated. No one else made you do that. You did that on your own. :neener:

So stop twisting history to justify your actions
 
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Slam Fire

was the HiPower designed to be cocked and locked?

if the nervous horse explanation is not reasonable, what other reason can you give for the design

If not please explain the same mechanical reasoning for the design
 
rellascout said:
Yet you and those advocating this point have not proven it logically.

Again you are only clinging to your myopic view of "designed"

As for your clone remark aren't 80 Series Colts 1991s? :neener:
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Actually, I am being very consistent. I've already said that when carrying a 1911A1, that I carry it condition 2. Which also is not initially what the 1911 was "Designed" to do. I am saying the same to you. Carry it anyway you want to. Just don't try and tell people that it was "Designed" to be carried condition 1. It wasn't. Just like it wasn't "Designed" to be carried condition 2; yet, that is how I carry it. But I know that it wasn't designed to be carried that way, and I'm not trying to B.S. or rationalize me carrying it condition 2. I carry it that way because I find it to be safer than condition 1; because I'm smarter than the gun; and because condition 3 creates other problems in a civilian environment when the weapon might be needed. But again; I'm not rationalizing me carrying it because some place it said it was "Designed" to be carried that way. I openly admit that I'm not carrying the 1911A1 the way it was "Intended". And that is what this is all about. How you carry it is a choice. No one can dog you for making a choice. But when you say it was "Designed" to be carried that way, you are saying that anyone carrying it different is wrong in how they carry it.

The truth is; the 1911 was "Designed" to be carried condition 3; UNTIL the soldier went into a potential harmful situation. Then, they went to condition 1. And if needed, they went to condition 0. I accept that. And I accept that I've "CHOSEN" to carry mine in condition 2, even though it wasn't "Designed" that way. And if you consider your entire like a "Potential Harmful Situation", and as such has decided to carry your 1911A1 in condition 1, then that is your choice. I don't consider every waking moment of my life a "Potential Harmful Situation". Then again, I carry "Better" weapons for concealed carry; and therefor this issue rarely ever comes up because my "Better" concealed weapons are sa/da with decockers.
 
lots of great feedback and the bottom line exposed "one hundred year old technology and the advice for using that, antique, technology" quality and safety improve drastically over time.

I won't be following the FM's advice since I am not going down due to a lack of shooting back.

Great research though, good job!
 
How silly. I don't own a gun spec'd exactly as a 1911A1 and I likely never will. I will probably end up getting another gun based on a modern rendition of the frame of a 1911, with few, if any, other original-style parts.

There are two questions to ask about a carry gun:

1. Is the individual gun, AS IT EXISTS, 100% drop-safe, no matter what condition it's in?
2. Will it go off with a light accidental touch of the trigger, without any other provisions for manual or automatic safety?

If the answer to #1 is "No" then it's a range gun, not a carry gun. I have a pretty heavily modified Ruger Mark II Target. It's got a fine trigger, but I don't know if I trust the safety. It's a match gun, and it's never been fired anywhere but at a pistol range. It's never even been loaded anywhere but on a sturdy range bench, while pointing downrange.

If the answer to #2 is "Yes" then it's not a carry gun, either. I do not own a Glock, and I doubt I ever will. I'm not telling you what to do, but I know what my requirements are. My requirements do not consider the trigger to be a safety, except that a good trigger design makes a gun drop-safe. But... the XD's grip safety, or the long and heavy trigger pull of a DA revolver or decocked DA/SA semiauto are good enough for my purposes.

A modern 1911-based carry gun is drop safe, and between the thumb safety AND the grip safety, it has provisions that prevent a simple bump of the trigger, by itself, from firing the gun, even if it's chambered and cocked, with the thumb safety off. That, too, is good enough for me. The fact that you can see the hammer does not make it less safe than a gun with the hammer hidden in the slide and called a "striker".

A modern 1911-based bullseye match gun can be amazingly smooth and tight, but it may well not be drop safe or otherwise suited for anything but shooting very accurate groups. You do need to know what's IN your 1911. They're not all the same. Today, "1911" does not define a gun. It is just a general standard around which a huge number of very different guns are built.
 
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Us older (more mature, LOL) folks will remember that it used to be well accepted that there were three way for doing things:

1) the right way

2) the wrong way

3) the Army way

Everyone can carry however they desire. However, I believe that a 1911 (or BHP) is safer "cocked and locked" in a holster than most SA/DA guns, or especially Glocks. Chances of an AD while holstering a revolver or SA/DA gun is low, but possible. Chance of an AD when holstering or carrying a C&L 1911 is virtually zero.

Chance of fumbling or slipping while drawing and cocking a gun in an emergency is much higher (IMO) that carrying a 1911 C&L. YMMV.

Ken
 
Folks, the 1911 has evolved over the past 100 years. Most produced today are not 1911's, they are 1911A1's, model 70's, model 1990A1s, etc.

For those of us that carry, they are a PRIMARY weapon. For most of the military, a rifle is a primary weapon and a pistol is a secondary weapon.

How many of us have "firing barrels" as we come into our homes to clear our weapons, like the military does?

We are closer to law enforcement as to how we use our weapons than the military. How many police departments do you know who carry with an empty chamber? Or have to cock their sidearm on a draw? (Geesh).
 
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How many of us have "firing barrels" as we come into our homes to clear our weapons, like the military does?
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Raised hand (not really a barrel, but serves the same purpose). However, I don't clear when I come home.
 
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