Heck if I know. I don't have any design books on the Hi Power, nor any history books on the design, test, development or fielding of the Hi Power.
If there is an afterlife, maybe we can ask John Browning about it.
I can wait.
Designed to be carried Cocked and Locked: Not!
- Thread starter Slamfire
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Heck if I know. I don't have any design books on the Hi Power, nor any history books on the design, test, development or fielding of the Hi Power.
If there is an afterlife, maybe we can ask John Browning about it.
I can wait.
X-Rap
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Very good paints. The 1911 is not the perfect weapon nor is any other, they all have some shortcomming that can be held up over another design or model.
It all amounts to what the individual is willing to give up or sacrifice compared to the other.
As far as intended design, I think that over a couple generations most designs are refined and improved so original intent usually changes with time.
How many train and practice in the old one handed style with the of hand on the hip.
Look at the old pics of the soldiers shooting 1911. No Weaver or Isosceles we must be doing it wrong.
It all amounts to what the individual is willing to give up or sacrifice compared to the other.
As far as intended design, I think that over a couple generations most designs are refined and improved so original intent usually changes with time.
How many train and practice in the old one handed style with the of hand on the hip.
Look at the old pics of the soldiers shooting 1911. No Weaver or Isosceles we must be doing it wrong.
When I was stationed at FLETC in the 1980's we received a report of a state police officer (It might have been Michigan) who was attending a La Maze class with his wife. He was carrying a 1911 in condition I and the report stated that the 1911 discharged through the chair with no one being injured on its own! (It should have been easily verified if the trooper left it in its fired condition, with an empty casing in the chamber and the safety engaged.)
I was at a loss as to how this could occur and asked our armorers about it. They explained that the thumb safety blocks the sear, not the hammer and if a poor trigger job had been done it is possible for a 1911 to have an AD with the safety on.
The quote I remember was, "To be safe the .45's hammer hooks must not be shortened." I had no clue since I was trained to diagnose and fix wheel guns and not semi-autos. (Semi-automatics were, at that time, banned from being carried on duty.)
Since that time Colt has come out with a firing pin block as have other manufacturers which should make a Condition III carry much safer.
Now that I am retired, if I were to carry a 1911 that did not have a firing pin block, I would use a holster with a safety strap (Probably a thumb break style) that would not permit the hammer to inadvertently fall on the firing pin.
Respectfully,
kent
I was at a loss as to how this could occur and asked our armorers about it. They explained that the thumb safety blocks the sear, not the hammer and if a poor trigger job had been done it is possible for a 1911 to have an AD with the safety on.
The quote I remember was, "To be safe the .45's hammer hooks must not be shortened." I had no clue since I was trained to diagnose and fix wheel guns and not semi-autos. (Semi-automatics were, at that time, banned from being carried on duty.)
Since that time Colt has come out with a firing pin block as have other manufacturers which should make a Condition III carry much safer.
Now that I am retired, if I were to carry a 1911 that did not have a firing pin block, I would use a holster with a safety strap (Probably a thumb break style) that would not permit the hammer to inadvertently fall on the firing pin.
Respectfully,
kent
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See my post above re match/range pistols vs. carry guns.
It could have been a very good trigger job -- just not one meant for a carry pistol. You have to know YOUR gun, its features, what's in it, and what it's meant for.
"1911" is nothing more than a frame spec.
Guillermo
member
an Army manual on how to use something bears no (as in ZERO) bearing on how or why something was designed. It only tells you how the green machine wants their people to use it.
JTQ
Member
No doubt a typo. I'm sure you meant to type Condition 2. Condition 3 has no round in the chamber, though they are in the magazine. A 1911 discharging while in Condition 3 is most unlikely.
This is new to me. I had always assumed that the safety blocked the hammer and the sear.
Well, well. The M1911 thumb safety is just a sear blocking safety. There is nothing but a little bit of sear holding that hammer back.
Cocked and locked with a series 70 mechanism may not be as safe as advertized.
Throughout this thread you've provided some really good technical data, not just opinions or repeats of opinions posted on the internet. IMO, you blew it with this post.
A quick search turned up this:
http://www.m1911.org/technic_forum.htm
At least as reliable as what a poster was told by someone else.
MythBuster
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Correct. The safety also blocks the last 1/4 inch or so of the hammer fall.
MythBuster
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"No doubt a typo. I'm sure you meant to type Condition 2. Condition 3 has no round in the chamber, though they are in the magazine. A 1911 discharging while in Condition 3 is most unlikely"
It is also "most unlikely" for it to discharge in condition 2
It is also "most unlikely" for it to discharge in condition 2
MythBuster
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The idea of everyday cocked and locked carry is a fairly new thing with the 1911 that started with Cooper and a few other modern day gun fighters.
Cocked and locked in the WW-I and WW-II era was almost unheard of.
Cocked and locked in the WW-I and WW-II era was almost unheard of.
MythBuster
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"It was designed to have numerous options for carry. If it WEREN'T designed to have condition one as an option, then why does the safety ONLY engage when the hammer is cocked?"
Many guns require the hammer or striker to be cocked before the safety can be engaged.
Many guns that no one in their right mind would carry condition one.
Many guns require the hammer or striker to be cocked before the safety can be engaged.
Many guns that no one in their right mind would carry condition one.
REAPER4206969
Member
Name one.
Eddie, that brought back a memory. When the NRA authorized semi-automatics in PPC competition I decided that I'd give it a try. We had a bunch of match 185 grain SWC FMC in the bunker and the armorer had just finished a 1911 that would group into 1.5" at 50 yards. I practiced diligently for weeks before the match. At the match I was assigned the far right firing point so that my empty casings wouldn't rain down on other competitors. I had been averaging 1984 out of 1500 which wouldn't win, but would be great fun in any case.
Match one was 12 rounds in 25 seconds at 7 yards and then at 15 yards. Seven yards was all X's which was a good start. The NRA required that the semi-auto be shot empty before any reload so that the range officer could see that it was empty during the reload. At 15 yards I fired the first six, dropped the magazine into a large bucket, reloaded and when I pressed the slide release the slide shot forward as did the hammer which was immediately followed by a very unexpected "Bang." The UD stuck the target in its right arm. I somehow got the remaining five into the ten ring, but only barely as I was shaking.
I was quite down-trodden as we went back to score. It was buddy scoring and a police woman next to me scored it 240. (Perfect score) It was not easy to point out the arm shot. (Score = 230)
I hoped I could still post a respectable score, but I had to align the sights each time I dropped the slide, (Just in case) and my front sight was a blur for the rest of the match since I couldn’t stop shaking.
The armorer inspected the .45 and stated that he had reduced the half-cock notch to protect his trigger job, and when the slide went forward the hammer followed and sheared the notch.
He then put it in the Ransom rest with five rounds in the magazine and pressed the trigger. What followed was a complete surprise. It went “full auto” with four of the five rounds going over the trees!
I felt quite badly about the match score, but I was very grateful that the 1911 hadn’t gone full auto during the Regional.
Respectfully,
kent
Jenrick
Member
rellascout: No LE or US military unit carries a 1911. A 1911 style etc is a different beast. N. Richland Hills PD carries Para's as issue, and the Texas Rangers almost to a ranger carry a 1911 style pistol (I believe their current ones are made by Wilson?).
My department and all others I know of that allow a 1911 style pistol require C&L. Carrying ANY pistol on duty without a round chamber or needing to manually cock the weapon (ie thumb the hammer back, DA triggers are of course not a problem) before firing is a major violation, that can get people fired at most departments/agencies. It certainly is with mine.
-Jenrick
My department and all others I know of that allow a 1911 style pistol require C&L. Carrying ANY pistol on duty without a round chamber or needing to manually cock the weapon (ie thumb the hammer back, DA triggers are of course not a problem) before firing is a major violation, that can get people fired at most departments/agencies. It certainly is with mine.
-Jenrick
Exactly. "1911" is just a frame spec, and even that's dubious any more. In general parlance, it's a general class of pistol, with more variations than I can count, especially given that you can buy ready-to-customize stripped frames and slides, and do with them what you will. In specific parlance, it's a museum piece. The actual 1911 hasn't been issued by anyone for a very long time.
NMGonzo
Member
SwampWolf
Member
Curious: No matter which condition the pistol discharged in, how is it possible that the empty casing could be assumed to have remained in the chamber after having been fired?
Jenrick
Member
With a 1911 style pistol if the safety is engaged the slide can't cycle as it's locked shut.
You can also get that on self inflicted gun shot wound to the brain (ie suicide most of the time). The hand holding the weapon goes limp as the slide begins to cycle, causing the whole weapon to instead recoil (the penultimate occurrence of limp wristing). As there is literally no resistance to the recoil forces the slide never cycles. We normally check for brass for about 5 minutes, and then the lead detective will clear pistol. I'd say better then 80% of the time the fired casing is in the chamber.
-Jenrick
You can also get that on self inflicted gun shot wound to the brain (ie suicide most of the time). The hand holding the weapon goes limp as the slide begins to cycle, causing the whole weapon to instead recoil (the penultimate occurrence of limp wristing). As there is literally no resistance to the recoil forces the slide never cycles. We normally check for brass for about 5 minutes, and then the lead detective will clear pistol. I'd say better then 80% of the time the fired casing is in the chamber.
-Jenrick
gc70
Member
When did the military buy Springfield (Imbel) slides to put on old Colt frames?
Call me crazy, but I prefer condition zero for carrying 1911s. You still have a grip safety along with the safety in between your ears. If you're carrying in a high quality holster with the trigger totally covered I don't see how this can be unsafe. Why the XD is considered safe without a manual thumb safety, but the 1911 needs to be carried cocked and locked is beyond me. Trigger safeties do nothing. Hell, I think a 1911 carried condition zero is definitely safer than a Glock.
On the other hand, the safety being there doesn't hurt. It's nice for the range or if you use a 1911 for your night stand gun. But if I were going to carry a 1911, I'd do so with one in the pipe, hammer back, safety off. A nice leather holster would also be in order. Just my 2 cents.
On the other hand, the safety being there doesn't hurt. It's nice for the range or if you use a 1911 for your night stand gun. But if I were going to carry a 1911, I'd do so with one in the pipe, hammer back, safety off. A nice leather holster would also be in order. Just my 2 cents.
HisSoldier
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You would have to do some serious damage to force the sear to let go with the safety on. A statistically insignificant probability.
I'm not familiar with the B model, but most Stars not only block the sear but also block the hammer back off the sear, this presents an even more imposing problem for statistical probabilities of firing with the safety in the on position, nearly impossible.
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