Heard this comment about the S&W M36/J frame...?
- Thread starter trikster
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OldCavSoldier
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I think anyone can become an "expert" with any gun. Calling a J-frame Smith an "expert's gun" probably alludes to trying to bullseye target shoot with a 2-inch barreled snubby. At Tueller Drill distance (21 feet) a snubby is just fine...and, probably easier than most to engage due to the short barrel. As with anything, practice is the key. I agree with an earlier post that some NRA pistol instruction also wouldn't hurt, if you are not very familiar with employing snubbies.
Good luck! Your M36 will serve you well!
Good luck! Your M36 will serve you well!
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trikster
Member
David E, I already have about 200 rounds of exactly what you mentioned (inherited the rounds from a relative) and the M36 came with a huge set of monogrips. The grips look enormous on the gun, but it is quite comfortable to hold.
I will certainly give a report on how I do next week. There is a class coming up on some basics that I am considering. I have an old flying buddy that's father is a retired NRA instructor. Trying to tie him down for some tips too.
I will certainly give a report on how I do next week. There is a class coming up on some basics that I am considering. I have an old flying buddy that's father is a retired NRA instructor. Trying to tie him down for some tips too.
heavyshooter
Member
My wife has a J-Frame and she shoots it just fine (she is not an expert). She did complain about the sights because she could not aquire a sight picture quickly. I added some Crimson Trace laser grips and now she is good.
Having said that, until you can get the gun you want you need to train with the gun you have. And frankly, the one you have is a fine gun. Don't listen to comments about recoil and then become concerned about it without having fired the gun; a lot! As has been said before, if it requires an expert, then become an expert.
Having said that, until you can get the gun you want you need to train with the gun you have. And frankly, the one you have is a fine gun. Don't listen to comments about recoil and then become concerned about it without having fired the gun; a lot! As has been said before, if it requires an expert, then become an expert.
The Lone Haranguer
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I had not thought of it that way, but there may be some truth to that, because this is a difficult type of handgun to shoot well. I no longer even own any small-frame revolvers.
royal barnes
Member
I prefer to carry one of my Colt 1911's but my back issues are forcing me to carry one of my J frames most of the time. I am comfortable carrying one and have put many rounds down range over the years especially when I carried one as a backup to my service weapon. They are more difficult to shoot but can be mastered by most anyone. I shoot Federal Nyclad 125's in both my Smith 340M&P and my 60 No Dash. If I were forced to choose only one handgun for everyday carry it would be the Smith 340M&P in my right front pants pocket with a couple of speed strips in the right rear.
PRM
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Nutts
You will always find nay-sayers. Especially if they are not proficient with the gun in question.
One of my first guns was an S&W J frame Model 60. I guess somebody forgot to tell me I wasn't supposed to be accurate with it. I've carried, shot and qualified with a J frame since the late 70s. I've carried a J Frame as a back-up, off duty and duty weapon throughout my career.
My hands are not on the large side (not tiny either) and I have never had a problem with the factory grips. They are great for carrying the gun concealed. I have used a Tyler T grip in the past. Shooters with larger hands have the option of after market grips.
Got a J frame. Shoot and enjoy it ~ maybe you are an expert and don't know it.
You will always find nay-sayers. Especially if they are not proficient with the gun in question.
One of my first guns was an S&W J frame Model 60. I guess somebody forgot to tell me I wasn't supposed to be accurate with it. I've carried, shot and qualified with a J frame since the late 70s. I've carried a J Frame as a back-up, off duty and duty weapon throughout my career.
My hands are not on the large side (not tiny either) and I have never had a problem with the factory grips. They are great for carrying the gun concealed. I have used a Tyler T grip in the past. Shooters with larger hands have the option of after market grips.
Got a J frame. Shoot and enjoy it ~ maybe you are an expert and don't know it.
trikster
Member
Range Report...
Got it out to the range today. Fired 53 total rounds. It has been two hours since packing everything up and my wrist is about 15% rounder, not a good sign.
Pretty uneventful and fun. Figured I would do SA first so I could get used to recoil then do DA. First shot was a surprise, trigger felt like the breaking glass I hear about. Hit the line on grid 4-1 of the first picture. The rest played out as shown. You can see how I walked up the holes as I went through the 20 rounds. I think I would have done better if I was using more consistent ammunition. These were all reloads of unknown weight bullet and powders (inside boxes of 148g WC like David mentioned above, sigh)...
Second shot is my attempt at DA. Same breaking glass feel and the trigger was heavy at initial pull that got lighter as I got closer to firing. These were a bit more spread out (fatigue and the target was also smaller) and because of what the SA sheet showed me, I was aiming at 2" above center. I did shoot some of the SD/HD rounds I had and their performance was a lot more consistent. The last round of the day got me within 1/2 inch of where I was aiming, but the recoil made my wrist sound like a bowl of rice crispies...snap, crackle and pop! It is still popping after 2+ hours.
Any thoughts on what you all think I can do to shrink those groups? I plan to go through at least one more box before I make my final decision on keeping the gun or not. I would hate to have an intruder and after the first shot, my wrist be dislocated (which has happened on a similar Model 36 using +P loads). I might be forced to go with a .22...
Got it out to the range today. Fired 53 total rounds. It has been two hours since packing everything up and my wrist is about 15% rounder, not a good sign.
Pretty uneventful and fun. Figured I would do SA first so I could get used to recoil then do DA. First shot was a surprise, trigger felt like the breaking glass I hear about. Hit the line on grid 4-1 of the first picture. The rest played out as shown. You can see how I walked up the holes as I went through the 20 rounds. I think I would have done better if I was using more consistent ammunition. These were all reloads of unknown weight bullet and powders (inside boxes of 148g WC like David mentioned above, sigh)...
Second shot is my attempt at DA. Same breaking glass feel and the trigger was heavy at initial pull that got lighter as I got closer to firing. These were a bit more spread out (fatigue and the target was also smaller) and because of what the SA sheet showed me, I was aiming at 2" above center. I did shoot some of the SD/HD rounds I had and their performance was a lot more consistent. The last round of the day got me within 1/2 inch of where I was aiming, but the recoil made my wrist sound like a bowl of rice crispies...snap, crackle and pop! It is still popping after 2+ hours.
Any thoughts on what you all think I can do to shrink those groups? I plan to go through at least one more box before I make my final decision on keeping the gun or not. I would hate to have an intruder and after the first shot, my wrist be dislocated (which has happened on a similar Model 36 using +P loads). I might be forced to go with a .22...
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David E
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Distance?
Post a pic of your gun. Different grips should help.
Don't shoot reloads of unknown make up.
Buy some FACTORY 148 grain target wadcutters. (not 158 grain semi-wadcutters. Totally different load)
Perhaps post a pic of you holding the gun. Maybe there's something in your technique we can address.
Glad you took it out!
Post a pic of your gun. Different grips should help.
Don't shoot reloads of unknown make up.
Buy some FACTORY 148 grain target wadcutters. (not 158 grain semi-wadcutters. Totally different load)
Perhaps post a pic of you holding the gun. Maybe there's something in your technique we can address.
Glad you took it out!
trikster
Member
Sorry, distance was 10 yards. I will get a pic of the pistol after I clean it, some of those loads were smokey... I will try an take a self portrait holding the gun. A couple of the guys at the range didn't see me doing anything adversely wrong at least in my stance, one guy said to rigid, but with my back, I don't know how much more loose I can go without falling over. LOL!
David E
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Those groups at 10 yds firing a snub for the first time aren't bad at all.
As you know, shooting is kind of a macho thing.....EVERYBODY can shoot great....just don't ask them to actually show you with live ammo.
When I teach, I always demo for the student(s) so they know:
1) what I'm asking them to do IS possible.
2) what it should look and sound like.
3) that _I_ can do exactly what I'm teaching them to do.
As you know, shooting is kind of a macho thing.....EVERYBODY can shoot great....just don't ask them to actually show you with live ammo.
When I teach, I always demo for the student(s) so they know:
1) what I'm asking them to do IS possible.
2) what it should look and sound like.
3) that _I_ can do exactly what I'm teaching them to do.
trikster
Member
I have gone into this knowing that I pretty much know nothing and want to learn as much as I can. When shooting I pretty much checked my ego at the door.
trikster
Member
Yeah, there were a few who were talking a ton of smack. It was funny and annoying. Granted the 6-foot muzzle flame was cool. Very hot loads in their AR15s.
Will get those pics hopefully this weekend.
Will get those pics hopefully this weekend.
A heavier revolver would reduce the recoil and likely be easier on your wrists. I'd try that before stepping down to a .22.
Try a S&W K-frame. You can switch out the grips to find what works best for you. My guess would be one of the Pachmyers with the exposed backstrap.
A J frame is not the gun I'd recommend for someone with wrist issues like you have.
M2 Carbine
member
I don't agree.
Neither does this young lady that is shooting the J Frame, while on the move, about an hour after the FIRST TIME she had ever touched a gun.
This is her target. While moving right, left, and backward, almost all shots were COM. She missed one shot over the shoulder and got two near miss in the shoulder and head.
I then told the girl, "Now you must put five shots in the head while standing still, at ten yards. Single action or double action, your choice".
She shot SA and made a smiley face with the five shots.
Usually the 2-3 inch J Frame is the second gun I have new shooters use.
They don't know that the J Frame is "an expert's gun" so they usually do very well with it. (rocking target)
I told these couple shooters, "You are making this shooting stuff look too easy, shoot with your left hand for a while". So they did.
The shooters generally like the 3 inch barrel over the 2 inch because the three inch sights are larger.
And BTW, I give friends and new shooters the ammo that they shoot at my place and the 38 Special is full load, not "target loads". The secret is to have hand filling grips on the little J Frames and they can shoot it all day with no discomfort.
A couple more new shooters that don't think the J Frame is only for experts.
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Rollis R. Karvellis
Member
You obviously can put the lead were it needs to be, so getting a K frame might be a good ideal for prolonged sections, and run a few cylinders at the end of the day. This will allow you to develop your skills without doing damage to your joints. Then practice as much as practical. Don't be afraid to start stretching your distance. Good sight, and trigger control is the most important part of being accurate. As far as range ninjas go, most of them are harmless, and mabey even fun. You will figure out the losers soon enough.
Hondo 60
Member
trikster,
As a reloader, I would definitely NOT recommend shooting someone else's reloads, unless you trust them implicitly.
There are just too many things that can & will go wrong.
Also, I've found that using lead projectiles kicks harder than jacketed or plated.
The reason being that lead is .001" larger than plated or jacketed.
(One of the many things I've learned since I started reloading)
Also, I've learned that you can tailor the ammo to your gun by reloading.
A very fast powder like Tite Group works WONDERFULLY in .38 spl.
It produces a very soft recoil.
Please stay safe & good luck!
As a reloader, I would definitely NOT recommend shooting someone else's reloads, unless you trust them implicitly.
There are just too many things that can & will go wrong.
Also, I've found that using lead projectiles kicks harder than jacketed or plated.
The reason being that lead is .001" larger than plated or jacketed.
(One of the many things I've learned since I started reloading)
Also, I've learned that you can tailor the ammo to your gun by reloading.
A very fast powder like Tite Group works WONDERFULLY in .38 spl.
It produces a very soft recoil.
Please stay safe & good luck!
If you were at the GunRoom don't pay them any attention...I've only found a couple of the staff there who know what they are talking about and don't pay much mind to the customers other than to watch their muzzles and aiming habits.
We're in the same town. If you're interested we can meet up and I'll check your stance and grip. I instruct, but no charge for the initial consult. Drop me a PM if you are interested.
I remember hearing about the J-frame being an experts gun too. I think it was in a magazine in an article by Mas Ayoob...hard to remember, it was 40 years ago. The reference meant that it isn't a good platform on which to learn to shoot a revolver. And he's was correct, it is one of the hardest to learn correct technique on. Besides the small grip frame, you also have to contend with the lack of mass and the coil spring geometry.
The J-frame is a popular first gun because of it's small size and feel in the hand. How a gun feels in your hand is a bit overrated as to it's function
Yeah, but he's already talking about giving it up for a .22 because of his wrist issues.
It sounds like it's not so much a "learning to shoot a J frame well" issue for him as it is a "I have wrist issues and the J frame is beating up my wrists" issue.
So, if he gives up on the J frame because its battering his wrists, I just think he should try a K frame (or even, horror, a semi-auto) before downgrading to a .22.
trikster
Member
The ammo that really hurt was the 125g hollow point. I felt the recoil all the way to my elbow. From what my grandfather told me, those rounds were carry rounds specifically taylored for ATF agents. (my grandparents were neighbors to an agent, he provided the ammo). The reloads were bought at a local shop and were in boxes stating 148g bullets. Being reloads and the shop closed, not sure...
I am considering trading for a M15, I am a revolver fan 100%. Bottom feeders do nothing for me.
As a side note, the HP hit a broken piece of clay at the 50 yard line. Was cool seeing it explode and the 4" crater in the dirt.
I am considering trading for a M15, I am a revolver fan 100%. Bottom feeders do nothing for me.
As a side note, the HP hit a broken piece of clay at the 50 yard line. Was cool seeing it explode and the 4" crater in the dirt.
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sixgunner455
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they make 95 grain lead round nosed bullets that fit in .38 cases. Put a light load of Bullseye behind one of those, and you'll have no need of trying to shoot a .22 instead of your .38.
That said, the K Frame is a more friendly size due to its greater mass. I have wrist issues, not quite like yours, but I feel your pain. I don't shoot +p in my 642, I shoot light 125 or 158 grain lead loads, and carry standard velocity 125 grain hollow points in it. Recoil is light and manageable.
If you like the size of the mod 36, then you can try to make it work with lighter loads of known provenance, or you could go for a j-frame .32 or .22. You have to work with the realities of your physical limitations.
That said, the K Frame is a more friendly size due to its greater mass. I have wrist issues, not quite like yours, but I feel your pain. I don't shoot +p in my 642, I shoot light 125 or 158 grain lead loads, and carry standard velocity 125 grain hollow points in it. Recoil is light and manageable.
If you like the size of the mod 36, then you can try to make it work with lighter loads of known provenance, or you could go for a j-frame .32 or .22. You have to work with the realities of your physical limitations.
The J's can be shot well with practice and if one can catch a snubby class - it will make a world of difference.
Here's a review of a great one by Claude Werner (I took it and wrote it up for Concealed Carry) but another participant posted his:
http://blog.hsoi.com/2010/03/01/aar-snub-training-with-claude-werner/
Like any pistol - a little practice and training and you can be good to go.
It's a good choice for an EDC and would work for HD also.
Nice pictures of TX shooting, M2Carbine! I had my daughter out shooting a Colt Cobra snubby and she put her target on her frig! I should have taken pictures of her - sigh!
Here's a review of a great one by Claude Werner (I took it and wrote it up for Concealed Carry) but another participant posted his:
http://blog.hsoi.com/2010/03/01/aar-snub-training-with-claude-werner/
Like any pistol - a little practice and training and you can be good to go.
It's a good choice for an EDC and would work for HD also.
Nice pictures of TX shooting, M2Carbine! I had my daughter out shooting a Colt Cobra snubby and she put her target on her frig! I should have taken pictures of her - sigh!
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