Is there a fine line between

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Batty67

Batty67

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having "enough" ammunition vs. "hoarding" ammunition? How would you define hoarding anyhow?

Personally, I keep a minimum of 1000+ of my go-to ammuniton, (9mm, .40S&W, and .30 carbine) and 2k of .22LR (can you tell I'm still kind of new to shooting)? About 90% FMJ, 10% SD/HD rounds. To me, this seems reasonable for any normal situation I can envision. And this being the High Road, I'm not talking about any of the not-to-be-discussed survival or apocalypse scenarios.

But, if a person kept many thousands of rounds for their main guns, then what would be the *real* purpose of that? Buying now to avoid the inevitable price hikes? Makes sense. Legitimate worry that firearms and ammunition will be regulated severely or taken away? To me, that seems highly unlikely. Or, is it really "in case something really bad goes down?"

But let's say it is the latter (primarily at least). Realistically, unless you have trained in how to survive and all the many, many non-firearms things to survive (food, water, medicine, shelter, etc.), than what good is having more ammunition than you can reasonably carry? BTW, I'm no survivalist (I'm an envrionmental scientist and technical writer/editor). I starting think along these lines when I felt compelled to keep buying ammunition, and I asked myself WHY exactly...and if the *why* made sense.
 
I try to have enough ammunition on hand to allow me to weather an ammo shortage or price spike without running out or having to buy at ridiculous prices. I didn't buy a single box of ammunition during the last bout of craziness--I was able to keep shooting from what I had on hand.

Not only did it save me hassle and money, it prevented me from being a contributor to the nuttiness of cleaning all available ammunition off store shelves.

There have been a couple of times when 1000 rounds was a single range trip. I've shot 1300 rounds in only two days on at least one occasion.

1000 rounds per caliber may be enough for you, but it wouldn't begin to be enough for me. Certainly not if we have another shortage or price spike.

That doesn't even begin to get into questions like--"How long will I be able to keep shooting if someone passes some sort of crazy law that restricts ammo sales or drives the prices ridiculously high for the long term?"

I buy in bulk when I see good deals and I generally have a lot of ammunition on hand at any given time. A hoard (maybe 3 or 4 hoards), by your standards. ;)
 
Hoard: To accumulate for future use, usually hidden or well-guarded.

Sounds like the dictionary definition is right on par with what I think of what I hear or read the word hoarding.

It isn't related to the number of rounds a person keeps on hand, IMO. The manner in which it's bought and stored - and why - is what matters when I consider ammo hoarding. Also, I get the impression you think of ammo hoarding as a bad thing. Many people do. I once suggested that someone was hoarding ammo, and he got super defensive.

What makes you think its a bad thing? Whether I store 10,000 rounds in my home because I expect prices to hike, or I store 1,000 rounds in my home because I know that's all I can reasonably carry in a SHTF scenario, what difference does it really make? Neither one would make me wrong. Neither is immoral or illegal. Both are [arguably] wise choices - but matters of preference either way.

I certainly don't frown upon anyone who would choose to store 1,000 rounds, or 100,000 rounds. Even if that 100k is kept for a SHTF scenario. I certainly agree that they may be nothing more than a false sense of security. Maybe the person can't carry them - but they could be given to friends/allies, or traded for food. One could choose to stay inside his home and try to "wait it out," which means he would have uninhibited access to his stockpile of ammo... the possibilities are just about endless, and so then are the reasons for "hoarding."

Main question I have, not directly to the OP, but just in general - what difference does it make? People ask about this often. IMO, do whatever makes you feel comfortable. That's what firearms are for.
 
Thanks for responding. I'm going shooting tomorrow with my brother to sight-in my replaced Vortex SPARC on my M1 carbine, shoot my Ruger 10-22 (always a hoot), and shoot my 9mm CCW because it has been too long. Even shooting for 90 minutes I doubt I'll shoot more than 150 rounds of each caliber. And my "policy" is to always get back to those minimums after I shoot. But I only shoot about once a month. I guess I'm a casual shooter.

I think as far as ammunition prices spiking, that those increases will be easy to spot on the horizon, and I'd buy accordingly. I'm an editor, and I am not necessarily putting a negative connotation on the term "hoarding." But I am trying to see what others think about it "how much is enough" for them and why. For me, as I outlines in my original email, I think (as of now) that it would not be defensible (to my wife at least!) for me to have 5k of 9mm, .30 carbine, and .40SW, and 10k of .22LR.

Again, this for me gets back to asking myself if I *need* more ammunition, and why I think I do.
 
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I think as far as ammunition prices spiking, that those increases will be easy to spot on the horizon, and I'd buy accordingly.
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You and everyone else. What do you think causes shortages?

All the people who think it will be easy to see on the horizon, see it on the horizon and head to the store to stock up. The shelves empty and the next guy in the store panics and goes to the next store and cleans them out because: "There's a shortage!". He and the store clerk get on the internet and tell all their friends that there's a run on ammo because of (insert conspiracy theory here) that (insert retailer here) has absolutely no ammo in stock and it could be months, maybe even years, before any more is available. Maybe never because (insert unfavorite politician's name) is in office.

Next thing you know, no retailers have ammo in stock and .380ACP is selling for $70 a box at the gun shows.

I know, it can't happen. Except it does happen--I've watched it.
 
I "roll my own" ammo and cast my own bullets. I guess you could say I'm hoarding lead, because I have more than a few pounds of it. I don't violate any guidelines on storage of powder or primers, and load what i want/need. I will say I keep a few laying about ready to go, if need be. ;)
 
Batty67 said:
I am not necessarily putting a negative connotation on the term "hoarding." But I am trying to see what others think about it "how much is enough" for them and why.
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To be completely honest, I'm not sure I believe in the concept of "enough ammunition," but that's coming from a guy who's never stored more than 550 rounds of ammunition at any given time. I do plan to "hoard" the stuff, I just never seem to add more before my stock is depleted. Frankly, even if I were to find that I actually have 100k rounds of assorted ammo, I'm not sure I'd stop buying it. Do I need that much? Define need.

Batty67 said:
For me, as I outlines in my original email, I think (as of now) that it would not be defensible (to my wife at least!) for me to have 5k of 9mm, .30 carbine, and .40SW, and 10k of .22LR.
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I've been married for just over two years, and my wife continues to surprise me when it comes to firearms. I think she'd begin getting a bit exasperated if I had 5k rounds of ammo total between all my firearms, but then again, I can see her not even caring if I had 100k rounds, as long as I had room to store them all in my armory. Her main issue would be with me buying more than a few hundred rounds at a time.
 
I buy a 50 round box for each of our two guns every time I go to Walmart (usually about twice a month). Since I buy more often than we shoot (we only use a box each when we head out to the range) I'm slowly accumulating without feeling like I'm making a major outlay in funds. I don't think I will ever have enough ammo to barter but I am interested in reloading, because I could easily get into shooting hundreds of rounds when I go to the range :) I like working with my hands on projects that require meticulous attention to detail; I think the loading itself would be satisfying to me.
 
Unless you're drowning or on fire, "too much ammunition" is a meaningless concept.
 
I agree in the concept of never having enough ammunition, but then there are issues of storing it, paying for it, not having enough money to eat to pay for it all. For me, the balance point is how much "inventory I have"; storage not an issue for doubling my current amount, and how much money I spend to have it all. It is expensive outside of 22LR, and 9mm to a lesser extent.

As for predicting future runs on ammunition, can it really happen inside of a week or two? Less? I was not into shooting back in 2008 when the last wave of craziness took place. How fast did things go from a bit hectic to crazy? How available was really common ammuniton like 9mm, 22LR, 223, etc.

Or was it the more "rare" rounds that god uber-expensive quickly?

Please feel free to share stories of watching ammunition prices getting butty and how quickly.
 
My definition, YMMV:

Hoarding is accumulating quantities of otherwise useful things that you would not be able to use in your remaining lifetime, sometimes in full knowledge of this fact but preferring to have it rather than allowing someone else to have it.
 
I'm venturing to guess any ammo I were to "hoard" would be worth more in 5 years or 10 years than anything else I buy with that money (except maybe firearms themselves).

Consider it an investment that could turn into gold :)
 
Can the argument be made that you could "invest" in ammunition in that, as long as you're not getting a lot of new/obscure ammo type that could decline sharply (such as [add example] in the past 5 years), it would likely never go down in price? OTOH, ammunition re-sales usually involve a big mark-down, such as what happens when you drive a new car off the lot.
 
As for predicting future runs on ammunition, can it really happen inside of a week or two? Less? I was not into shooting back in 2008 when the last wave of craziness took place. How fast did things go from a bit hectic to crazy?
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VERY fast. When folks started seeing the shelves empty, the ammo buying craze switched into overdrive. People who never cared about having ammo went out and bought huge quantities and the demand went through the roof. The result was that in a matter of days local department stores were sold out and even the local gun stores rarely had ammo in stock. Occasionally they'd have a massively marked up box on their shelves.
How available was really common ammuniton like 9mm, 22LR, 223, etc.

Or was it the more "rare" rounds that god uber-expensive quickly?
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It was the common stuff that took the biggest hit because that's what most people were looking for. They pretty much disappeared--even the online stores were often sold out completely of anything in the mainstay calibers.

Oddly enough, the more "rare" rounds took a very small hit because the demand for cartridges like .32-20 and 45/70 didn't change much.

If you think you want ammo on hand, don't wait until a shortage is imminent. For one thing you might not be able to beat the rush. For another, even if you do, you're contributing to the panic/shortage and that's not a good thing.
 
Properly stored factory centerfire ammo should last virtually indefinitely.

Rimfire, properly stored, should be good for a couple of decades, maybe more.

Properly stored means that you'd be comfortable living under those conditions. 70-80 degrees, not too damp, etc.
 
Does ammunition expire? Ever?
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Yes. From the archives...
SlamFire1
January 12, 2011, 01:52 PM

Double based and single based powders start deteriorating the day they leave the factory. Nitroglycerine and nitrocellulose want to combine to form a lower energy compound. Nitric acid gas is released as a by product of this reaction.

The reaction rate is directly proportional to heat. The hotter things are, the faster the migration and reactions.

The Navy initially test for acid gas by the Methly Violet test, or Talliani test. If acid gas is detected than a chemical analysis is performed to determine the amount of stabilizer in the powder. (Stabilizer is either MNA or 2-NDPA)
When the concentration of stabilizer is LT or EQ to 20% of the original content, the Navy scrapes the lot.


The Army does things different. They scrap based on clock time. 20 years for double based powders, 45 years for single base.

Per an energetics expert I know, the best storage conditions for powder is arctic cold. That is cold and dry. He said water exposure damages powder.


http://www.almc.army.mil/alog/issues/JulAug08/propellant_stab_eq.html

The U.S. military has stockpiles of ammunition, new and old, that can present safety hazards. The primary ingredient of the propellant used in these rounds, nitrocellulose, can deteriorate with age and become prone to auto ignition. To avoid the destruction that could occur from the self-ignition of this propellant, the Department of Defense (DOD) has established a program for testing ammunition stocks to determine the thermal stability of the nitrocellulose propellants they contain.
More reading on this subject:

www.dtic.mil/dticasd/sbir/sbir031/n154.doc
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As for predicting future runs on ammunition, can it really happen inside of a week or two? Less? I was not into shooting back in 2008 when the last wave of craziness took place. How fast did things go from a bit hectic to crazy?
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While it may have been slightly more gradual than a "week or two" it did come on a lot faster than most shooters ever thought possible. The idea of there being no bulk .22 ammo at Walmart was unfathomable to most shooters....til they went to buy bulk .22 at walmart only to discover it wasn't there...or, if it was, there were limits as to how many boxes you could buy. To many shooters, this was a wake-up call that not only CAN it happen, but, given the right situation, WILL happen. I didn't buy ammo during this time period, but I didn't need to. I was lucky and saw coming a ways further out than many people did. I never thought there would be a day i was giving my nephews bulk ammo from my stash because it was nearly impossible to find in stores.

How available was really common ammuniton like 9mm, 22LR, 223, etc.

Or was it the more "rare" rounds that god uber-expensive quickly?
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no, the types of ammo you listed, along with things like .45, 7.62x39, etc were the first types of ammo to skyrocket in price and/or become hard to find. Ammo for my "hunting" rifles like the .243 and 7mm mag were virtually unaffected, while things like .223 and .22 saw 100% price increases and reduced overall availability. Ammo for ccw weapons and military calibers like 5.56/.223 saw the biggest price hikes, as they are in far more demand than most hunting ammo or "rare" ammo.


For the amount of shooting I do, 1k per weapon is a viable stock for centerfire, but I prefer to have at least 5k in .22LR on hand, just so I can give out a couple hundred rounds in the event I need to without reducing my personal supply too greatly
 
While it may have been slightly more gradual than a "week or two" it did come on a lot faster than most shooters ever thought possible.
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It was fast in this area.

I typically make an ammo run every two weeks. One run was normal, the next, two weeks later, the shelves were empty.
 
I have two LGS that will drop CCI Blazer to $8.99/box. I usually pick up 1000 rounds every time they go on sale. Hoard? Heck no! I shoot 'em!
 
As for predicting future runs on ammunition, can it really happen inside of a week or two?
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In December 1973, Johnny Carson jokingly said on The Tonight Show (they were discussing crude oil markets as I recall) that toilet paper was in acute shortage in the US. Within a couple of days American consumers, having heard the comment or heard of it and either believing it was true or fearing it might be true, emptied supermarket shelves of toilet paper. It took about three weeks for the paper industry to to catch up.

All of this based on a comedian's off-hand and completely made-up comment on a late-night talk show.

So yes, it can happen very quickly. Granted, TP is a more widely used commodity than ammo, so ammo shortages might take longer to manifest. The point is that even a rumor or threat (see Strait of Hormuz) can drive an artificial, non-market-driven run on a product.
 
There is no such thing as hoarding or enough. Ammo is an expendable resource. You never know when it will be less available, more expensive, or even illegal. The more you have now, the less you have to buy later. If you're going to buy it and shoot it at some point, why not now?
 
Call it hoarding or whatever but to save money and assure a good supply of ammo I but in bulk and on sale, or the cheapest price I can find.

I'm still shooting $4.39/box of WWB 9mm, $54/1,000 7.62x39, $70/1,000 9x18, $4.00/20 30.06, etc.
I also maintain a large stock of reloading components and have many thousands of all caliber reloads.
9mmWWB.gif

Although it may have hurt at the time, I've never regretted stretching the budget to buy a couple cases of ammo on sale.

The recent big ammo shortage and ridiculous price increases meant nothing to me and friends.
When it looked like obama was going to run, a friend and I were at the gun show looking at the first increase in reloading bullet cost. We were trying to decide if we should buy a lot of bullets or a whole lot of bullets.
My friend said, "If you don't like the cost now, you will hate it next year".
We bought everything the dealer had in our calibers.



.
 
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I've always looked for bulk ammo deals. Money permitting I buy as much as I can afford of any of the caliber guns I have. Save all the brass and reload it until it is unusable. Save the rejects and melt them down for knife guards andd handles.

Minimum ammo I would like for each gun is 1000 rds.

Cheers,

ts
 
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