Shotgun blasts into the air... threat to others?

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Yoda

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In another thread, I mentioned that an acquaintance had driven some potential looters away with a shotgun blast into the air. Another poster noted that a shotgun fired into the air consitituted a "warning shot," and the falling shot posed a threat to third parties.

I am well aware that "warning shots" are generally a bad idea, and I explain why when teaching my concealed carry classes. Rather than start another re-hash of the wisdom of "warning shots," I'd like to ask different question:

Does falling shot pose the same threat as falling bullets?

I admit ignorance on this issue. I always thought that shot decelerated rather quickly, but then, shot is just a smaller version of a musket ball, and I suspect those were lethal at far greater ranges than they were accurate. It seems to me that steel or lead shot, dropped from a high altitude, would reach some terminal velocity, and this velocity may not be lethal. On the other hand, I think I've read that kids who used to drop marbles from high-rise apartments could kill a pedestrian on the sidewalks below, and marbles aren't as dense as metal shot. (Gee, do kids even have marbles anymore? Probably not: Choking hazard.)

So again, is falling shot a hazard? Does it matter whether it's double-ought buck or birdshot? (Let's not discuss slugs. I think those are a different issue.)

(And again, the question isn't about the wisdom or legality of shotgun blasts into the air.)

- - - Yoda
 
Assuming a heavy buckshot or slug, that was shot at a relatively low arc,I would think it could retain enough velocity to be dangerous or lethal. But, if shot more or less straight up into the air, from everything I've read, falling firearm projectiles are not lethal,and stories of people being killed by these are urban legend. Even the story of people being killed by pennies tossed off the Empire State building were disproved by Myth Busters :D.
 
When I ran Silhouette Matches at Fort Bliss the shotgun range was next to us. I would be at the 200m stands and would get hit by shot and it did sting so yes it could.
 
Birdshot, not really, except for some risk of eye injury. Buckshot could pose a real threat of eye injury at minimum.

And while the question is not "about the wisdom or legality of shotgun blasts into the air ", it is important to point out that it's a bad idea on all counts.

"Potential looters"? Is there a factual basis to indicate that they pose an immediate threat to the life and limb of the defender that would justify the use of deadly force?

If not, causing an apprehension that you will harm them is almost always a crime; exceptions include the display of a weapon in instances in which force is justified, in a couple of states. In many states, doing so with a firearm is a very serious crime indeed.

And, of course, should one of the shot, whether No. 7 1/2 or 00, injure anyone, the criminal and civil liability could be very significant.
 
...is falling shot a hazard? Does it matter whether it's double-ought buck or birdshot?
Ever been pheasant hunting? Duck hunting? Dove? You know that most all bird hunting is done with shot, and it is all fired into the air, right?

Anyway, one of the scariest things to experience is getting peppered with a fellow hunter's shot. Sends chills up your spine!!

Buckshot is different, heavier, and would retain more energy.
 
If you have been dove hunting you most likely have been the victim of falling shot. With a hat and shooting glasses it is a non event (with "bird-shot"). With some frequency I shoot over my pasture. At times, the shot falls on the tin roof of my old barn. It rains down pretty slowly. With birdshot there is little energy remaining in each pellet.
 
I was showered with #4 and #2 shot by duck hunters while roofing a house on a marsh in November. It sounded and felt like rain/light hail bouncing off the roof. No harm done but it was disconcerting and we asked the hunters to quit shooting in our direction. They were definitely within the 500 ft. limit.

Tinpig
 
For Kleanbore

Here is the context of the story of the shotgun blast into the air:

It was after one of several Hurricanes that had hit the Florida Panhandle that year. There was no electricity, and the owner of a gun store/pawn shop decided to guard his establishment. It was after midnight and it was pitch black, and if you've never been in a region (region, not locale) where there is zero power, you can't imagine how utterly black everything is, and how busy the cops might be.

The owner and his son were standing near a corner of the store, in the alley behind it, and they heard--but could not see--two men discussing how to break a lock on a storage unit behind the store. Rather than illuminate them with a flashlight or challenge them, he just fired a shot into the air. He heard them run off and trip over something.

I didn't think to ask what sort of load the shotgun had.

Was this tactically smart? I think it was smart enough. The threat went away, and no one was hurt.

Again, I know the arguments against warning shots, but in this case, I think it was a reasonable move.

- - - Yoda
 
If it's fired perfectly vertical (highly unlikely) it doesn't matter it it's shot, a slug, or a 150gr. FMJ from a .30-06. It has to stop before it can come back down and the speed at which it comes down is nowhere near the velocity it went up with. Therefore I can't imagine a shot fired straight up causing too much harm, shots fired into the air on an arc from high powered rifles can and have killed people several miles away.
 
Does falling birdshot pose the same threat as a falling 180gr JHP? No.

Does a falling hammer pose the same threat as a falling grand piano? Arguably, the difference is moot since either one has the energy to seriously injure or even kill the person it lands on.

Even falling birdshot can do harm--it has to come down somewhere. If I'm under your shot shower, and I feel a piece hit me, I'm inclined to look up to see what's going on, and once I do that the next piece could hit my eye.

Regardless of the OP's request to ignore the "wisdom" of firing the shot skyward, to isolate the question of potential damage from why the shot would be in the air in the first place is a disservice--it presumes that the shot just appeared in the sky rather than tagging its presence to someone who fired a shell. Isolating the shot from the shooter--negating accountability for where the shot goes--is a bad idea in every case.
 
Posted by Kyle M: If it's fired perfectly vertical (highly unlikely) it doesn't matter it it's shot, a slug, or a 150gr. FMJ from a .30-06. It has to stop before it can come back down and the speed at which it comes down is nowhere near the velocity it went up with. Therefore I can't imagine a shot fired straight up causing too much harm, shots fired into the air on an arc from high powered rifles can and have killed people several miles away.
Everything will depend upon aerodynamics. The sptizer bullet starts wit ha given amount of kinetic energy; part of it is dissipated by drag, but the greater part is converted into potential energy. On the way back down, and it will drop point first, the potential energy is converted back into kinetic energy, again limited somewhat by drag. And it will be very dangerous.

Whether is is fired straight up and stops or at a slight angle from the vertical and continues in a ballistic trajectory will make little difference.

Shotgun pellets are much more subject to drag than pointed bullets.
 
I've been hit in the lip by 7.5 shot at about 75 yards coming down from a shot on a dove by a friend. I've been peppered in the duck marsh by steel shot and hit here or there. The 6 shot stun a tad, but bounced right off and didn't even bother the tooth under my lip. I was kinda amazed that it didn't hurt any worse than it did.

Now, all bets are off with 00 buck.

I left the track before this happened, but saw a pic of my bud's foot after. They were sitting around the pits (mini motorcycle road racing) at a little kart track in Katy, Texas out in the boonies with houses around. There were kids playing and running around as always. He's seated in a lawn chair chatting and a .223 FMJ bullet comes out of the air and hits his foot, goes through and lodges in the sole of his shoe. Now, it didn't penetrate much, but had it hit him or one of the kids in the head, it coulda been MUCH worse. Yeah, rifle bullets shot in the air can cause injury beyond bird shot.
 
Posted by Yoda: It was after one of several Hurricanes that had hit the Florida Panhandle that year. ....

The owner and his son were standing near a corner of the store, in the alley behind it, and they heard--but could not see--two men discussing how to break a lock on a storage unit behind the store. Rather than illuminate them with a flashlight or challenge them, he just fired a shot into the air. He heard them run off and trip over something.

Was this tactically smart? I think it was smart enough. The threat went away, and no one was hurt.
I don't think it was very smart.

There's the little matter of the 20 year mandatory penalty for warning shots in Florida. At least one person is serving now, and another will get a new trial after having served three years of his term.
 
We used to intentionally drop shot into the boats of duck hunters that had set up too close.

You mean you intentionally shot at people just because you didn't like where they set up to hunt? That has to be the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time. You're lucky none of those guys pulled out a rifle and decided to return fire! :fire:

OP: I wouldn't think that most bird shot would harm someone in the majority of cases, but you only have to get one lucky pellet to actually do some damage (hitting the eye etc.). Even though I don't think it will hurt someone the majority of the time, that doesn't mean its a good idea to count on the shot being "less than lethal" at range. We are responsible for every round we fire and we are liable for any and all damage caused by our actions.
 
I used to squirrel hunt in a woods near a waterfowl hunting area. When we heard shot coming through the trees, we'd just turn our backs to it until it stopped. The only concern we had, due to distance and angle, was eye injury. So we just turned around.
 
All depends on the angle. Straight up, bullets and shot come down at terminal velocity which I believe is not lethal from small shot or a falling bullet.

Angled outward, if close enough distance, then yes.
 
I have been sprinkled several times in the dove fields. Nothing to it as long as it does not hit you in the face. This is why you should always wear safety glasses and a billed cap. About the only way that falling bird shot could really hurt you would be a direct hit to the eye. You would literally have to be looking up for that to happen, but then, you will be looking up a lot in a dove hunt.
 
stories of people being killed by these are urban legend.


http://content.usatoday.com/communi...2/amish-teens-death-ruled-a-homcide-in-ohio/1

This girl was killed by a muzzle loader bullet fired into the air. The gentleman was unloading his gun and fired up instead of into the ground.

A fan at a college football game in the Georgia Dome few years back that was fired to celebrate New Years.

http://www.redandblack.com/sports/s...cle_de5798b6-7c7f-5364-aee5-662d62989dce.html

It does happen.

With larger buckshot, slugs, rifle and handgun bullets they have enough mass to cause property damage, injuries or even death if they hit. Smaller birdshot is unlikely to cause any real damage unless someone were sruck in the eye by a pellet. It is very common at do doveshoots for pellets to literally rain down on shooters across the field after a volley fired by several shooters on the other end of a field. I've been hit countless times and it hits no harder than large raindrops. I still hold my head down and always wear sunglasses or clear eye protection at a dove shoot.
 
Posted by leadcounsel: Straight up, bullets and shot come down at terminal velocity which I believe is not lethal from small shot or a falling bullet.
Yes; I stand corrected. 150 grain spitzers have been tested; TV is about 300FPS.

Angled outward, if close enough distance, then yes.
Therein lies the physical problem. Who shoots with a plumb bob? Celebratory gunfire with rifles is often lethal. And my dad once had a .45 ACP bullet come down through the sheet metal of a 1950 Ford on New Year's Eve. The bullet lodged in a chassis member.

Either way, I'm not interested in a long drawn out trial with a bad outcome.
 
You mean you intentionally shot at people just because you didn't like where they set up to hunt? That has to be the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time. You're lucky none of those guys pulled out a rifle and decided to return fire!
Not shot at, but we didn't avoid taking shots at ducks that would result in the shot landing in their boats. You couldn't see them, they would row into the cattails and take advantage of our decoy spread.
 
I used to squirrel hunt in a woods near a waterfowl hunting area. When we heard shot coming through the trees, we'd just turn our backs to it until it stopped. The only concern we had, due to distance and angle, was eye injury. So we just turned around.
That is what I was taught growing up!
 
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