Competition pistol shooting?

They are probably the #2 most popular gun shot in Production division in USPSA, and possibly the #3 most popular in IDPA, behind Glock and 1911s as a whole.

I had one and did not have good luck with it in terms of reliability but I know others than run them and seem to like them. There have been reported issues of a lack of accuracy with certain M&Ps as well, but S&W seems to have always tried to make it right for those users that experienced that problem.

I would like to say the M&Ps are absolutely fantastic. I shot my best classifer score ever with an M&P I'd just borrowed from a pal. They're very nice to shoot.

Unfortunately, the collection of recurring problems MANY of my upper-level competitor friends have experienced with them has driven quite a few of them away from them.

There's a common failure to extract issue. There are workarounds like aftermarket extractors and stronger springs, but maddeningly, that does not always solve the problem -- or solves it for a few days, weeks, or months only to have it inexplicably return.

There's also a light primer strikes problem which affects some guns. Again, stronger springs, polish this, polish that...and it might get better for a while.

I've got one pal who's bought and sold five M&Ps and is now sworn off the platform "forever" ...again.

I know five or six Expert/Master/"A" type shooters who've experienced these issues and ended up returning guns to S&W multiple times, dropping in better parts, and ditching the platform anyway.

This is more hard to take in that the group I shoot with is very local to (and shoots regularly with) one of the main M&P gunsmiths (Burwell), so if they can't keep the gun running, that's telling. In fact, I worked the PA States IDPA match at Dan Burwell's home club earlier this month, and this was a returning topic of conversation -- punctuated by the fact that several M&P pistols had these familiar malfunctions during the match!

I really do like those guns, but I'm not buying one. Don't know what it will take for S&W to get them ALL to work right in the long-term, but they've had plenty of time and they aren't there yet.

I fared better. My Plastic M&P shot reliably in stock form before I sent it to Mr Burwell and has continued to since it came back, in spite of an infortunate interlude when the house burned down over it. Yes, Melonited stainless steel CAN be rusted by fumes and water. But it cleaned up adequately with only some loss of color, hardly any pitting.

What of XD's? I prefer the XD over the Glock at this time, and would also like to begin looking into competition shooting.

The only person who shoots one is Robbie, because they pay him. That probably means something.

I assume you were reffering to my comment. Good to know. Thanks.

That being said, I'm sure it would take you a long way if that's what you have and what you want to use. I have a few friends with them and they seem to like them. I don't really, but that's because I'm a Glock user.

I like Chevy over Dodge and Dodge over Ford. But I would drive whatever got me to my destination.

I shoot the G34 for IDPA, USPSA and Steel action.

I love the 9mm and the G34 tames it really well. I think this whole major/minor USPSA thing is crap. It's unnecessary and stupid.

I shoot limited with my stock G34 because the others I know shoot limited.

If I was you, I would get the 34 and shoot production for USPSA. For IDPA and Steel you will have the best gun for what you are doing.

I'm looking at ZEV Triggers right now, and Warren Sevegny sights. Shoot a year or so and then start buying goodies.

A good belt is a must! A wilson tactical is nice and cheap and is infinitely adjustable.

I think this whole major/minor USPSA thing is crap. It's unnecessary and stupid.

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Wow. I would dare say you are in the minority opinion on that one.

It's just a ploy to get the .40 in wider use.

My friends who shoot USPSA like it more than IDPA because it has less rules and is faster paced. Why not let people shoot the best caliber they can? I understand and see the fun in having a Heavy division with .45's. But why penilize someone for being smart and shooting cheaper and easier to shoot 9's?

Fight the system!! get the g34!

Because exactly what you said...9mm is easier to shoot than major .40 or .45 ammo, so it earns less points on target. Unless of course you shoot all A's.

If you want different divisions that's one thing. But to penilize 9mm shooters is just plain dumb.

If you scored 9mm the same as .40 and .45, then you'd be penalizing the people who shoot major.

9mm shooters are not penalized. They compete in a division and are only compared to others in that division abiding by the same rules.

An unfair system would force production shooters to compete with open shooters.

Additionally, there are classifications for each division. Winners of a classification are also recognized at matches above level 1.

USPSA rules may not be perfect, but they generally make sense in this regard.

I'm not familiar enough with IPDA rules to comment on them, my scores prove it.

Not penalized? A 9mm hole and a .40 hole in the same place on a target (with the exception of A zone) are scored differently. It would be the same thing as scoring a basket in basketball differently if you swish it or bank it in. They were both shot from the same place and in the same place, they should be scored the same.

If they had a .40 division almost no one would shoot in it. Less than those that shoot in the heavy division (.45)
The only reason it exists is to increase the proliferation of the .40!

An unfair system would force production shooters to compete with open shooters.

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That would be unfair, and they don't because they want to discourage shooters who don't have the money to spend on the open guns.
But this is not the same as the difference between 9mm and .40. Production gun $500-600 Open gun $3000-7000! That makes sense.

Not counting my hits the same as another in the same division hardly makes sense. They don't break down the limited division into 9mm and .40 categories for competing and ranking.

If you scored 9mm the same as .40 and .45, then you'd be penalizing the people who shoot major.

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No you would be penalizing people who are stupid and don't play the game the best way. They make a .45 division because some people like to shoot the .45 more. I don't know anyone who would rather compete with the .40 over 9mm if the scoring was even. If I'm wrong then they would have enough people for a .40 only division. Which they don't!

coolluke01 said:

They don't break down the limited division into 9mm and .40 categories for competing and ranking.

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That's pretty much the difference between minor and major power factors. Effectively it is broken down into 'categories'.

Minor is clearly easier to shoot than major.

Generally, .40 major is not competitive in production and 9mm minor is not competitive in limited or L-10.

Effectively it is broken down into 'categories'.

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While there are allowances for shooting major and minor in the limited division they are scored differently but ranked together. If I'm not mistaken. That means a B run with .40 beats a B run with 9mm. And in national rankings there is no different scoring class.

It just kinda sucks to build a gun you like for IDPA and steel shooting and then be scored as a 2nd class citizen when you shoot USPSA. USPSA is getting into regulating 3 Gun and they don't have this major/minor BS. They do have a heavy division for .45's and .308's. Everything else is shoot what you have.

You can shoot 9mm in major, or .38 Super, or .357 SIG, or .45 GAP, or 10mm. There are lots of choices other than .40 S&W or .45 ACP.

Can we just all agree that coolluke is a know nothing whiner and carry on without him?

The point is, the rules allow weaker ammo to compete side by side with more heavily recoiling ammo, and the trade off is that you get less points for a non-A zone hit. Based on that, nearly everyone decides to shoot the harsher ammo because they get more points. USPSA's motto is "Diligentia - Vis - Celeritas" "Accuracy - Power - Speed". Power factor is not going to go away from the scoring, ever. If you don't like it, quit.

I know there are other options for major other than .40.
There's no point in shooting 9mm major as it will be harder to shoot than .40 and it's hard to get a 9mm to shoot major, well.

I guess I wouldn't have a problem if the minor penalty was more realistic. The difference in scoring far out weighs the disadvantage of shooting major over minor. As you said

9mm minor is not competitive in limited

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I think both A's and B's should be scored the same.

Write a letter to your area director and convince him to present it to the board then.

Can we just all agree that coolluke is a know nothing whiner and carry on without him?

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I kinda doubt you will get that consensus. Im simply voicing my displeasure with the scoring system. I'll still shoot minor as I have, but it will limit my desire to shoot USPSA because it's hard to be competitive with the best, although I have little doubt I could beat you.