.308 vs. A bear
- Thread starter Fire_Moose
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MCgunner
Member
So, you're sayin' I can stop a bear with a .338 by shooting him in the ass? I don't think so. You still need proper shot placement, I don't care if you're using a ma deuce.
MCgunner
Member
Me, I've always thought one of these in .325 WSM would be a cool Alaska camp rifle. 
Be better, I guess, in stainless, but the caliber seems like it's got plenty.
Be better, I guess, in stainless, but the caliber seems like it's got plenty.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Stop a charging bear? Easy. Take away his VISA card.
Sorry. Couldn't help it. It's that danged character defect.
Sorry. Couldn't help it. It's that danged character defect.
MutinousDoug
Member
If you are interested in more than anecdotes regarding bear kills and bear attacks, Steven Herrero's book: Bear Attacks, Their Causes and Avoidance contains a large compendium of data collected by Park Rangers and law enforcement personnel.
It includes a brown bear kill with a .22LR and a failure by a .458 Win Mag head shot to enter the skull of another.
12 ga slugs seem to be the defensive cartridge of choice of Alaskan fishing guides.
It includes a brown bear kill with a .22LR and a failure by a .458 Win Mag head shot to enter the skull of another.
12 ga slugs seem to be the defensive cartridge of choice of Alaskan fishing guides.
win71
Member
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Luck and shot placement
If it’s big and mad and charging, bullet placement usually means just hitting it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNYwusa8xUY
If it’s big and mad and charging, bullet placement usually means just hitting it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNYwusa8xUY
"I'd be more worried about that moose you plan on hunting than a bear. Moose kill more people than bears. "
That's an interesting comment - I didn't know that.
Maybe I need to read the companion volume to the bear attack stories ... "Hunters That Avoided Bears and Got Mowed Down By A Moose". Hahahaha!
CA R
That's an interesting comment - I didn't know that.
Maybe I need to read the companion volume to the bear attack stories ... "Hunters That Avoided Bears and Got Mowed Down By A Moose". Hahahaha!
CA R
Actually .308 is LOT better than a .44 magnum, depending of course on bullet selection. But the actual ballistic power of a .308 is nearly double many .44 magnum loads.
On the other hand, for a CHARGING bear is not something to take lightly and I HOPE to never have the opportunity to prove how effective my strategies are but I would want more than a .308 or a .44 magnum in that situation. No doubt though, a .308 is a lot better than a stick for sure.
Kachok
Member
Would not say ALOT more you have to consider caliber/mass/momentum when talking stopping power, and a 240-300gr 44 mag has an abundance of all of the above, going by a KE only standard is deceptive, in terms of energy the 223 is more powerful then a 44 mag, in reality we know the 44 is much more effective on target. I did a thread on this once posting BG tests for those two cartridges and we are talking a night a day difference.
Chuck Hawks killing power index has the 150gr 308 at a 34 and the 240gr 44 magnum at 26, I use both and would call that a fair comparison, the 308 is no doubt more effective but not twice as much. The huge advantage the 44 enjoys is real world reaction time and followup, a revolver is quicker to point, aim, shoot and repeat then any 308 rifle I have ever seen .
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I own and carry my Ruger Super Redhawk .44 magnum for woods carry here in Northern Idaho where we also have a few griz. Hopefully, I never meet Mr. Griz. Nevertheless, given the choice between a .44 magnum revolver and a .308, hands down, it would be the .308 IF that was my only choice.
http://www.ballistics101.com/308_winchester.php
http://www.ballistics101.com/44_magnum.php
The .308 gives you the extra benefit of hydrostatic shock that the .44 magnum does not. Comparing the ballistics even of the +P+ Buffalo Bore .44 magnum load which I carry, it is not even close to the .308. The average 240 gr load is closer to 900 ft-lbs of muzzle energy compared to 2700 with the .308. Sorry, but I will simply have to differ on the .44 magnum even though it is indeed my choice of revolver for woods carry. Given a charging bear, I would definitely prefer a high powered rifle starting with a 30-06 and above but a .308 isn't a slacker either being just below a 30-06.
The .308 is not my choice of rifle, I go with a .444 Marlin or my .300 WSM which are both on the lower end of acceptable bear guns.
Kachok
Member
Hate to say it but you are not fixing to "shock kill" a 700lbs angry bear with anything shy of a 50 BMG. You don't see any safari guides shooting uber high speed cartridges talking about hydrostatic shock do you? Nope they all use larger caliber, slow, heavy bullets as their stoppers and I would venture a guess that none of them use 7mm ultra mags to stop a charging cape buffalo
Sorry my friend, lets not make ridiculous statements and then attribute them to me.Hate to say it but you are not fixing to "shock kill" a 700lbs angry bear with anything shy of a 50 BMG. You don't see any safari guides shooting uber high speed cartridges talking about hydrostatic shock do you? Nope they all use larger caliber, slow, heavy bullets as their stoppers and I would venture a guess that none of them use 7mm ultra mags to stop a charging cape buffalo
.44 magnum revolver vs. 308? My choice would be .308 but really both are inadequate. If you prefer .44 magnum, just fine with me since that is my minimum woods carry as well.
Push comes to shove, I take my 444 Marlin before my .300 wsm due to it's large slow loads even though the .300 wsm edges it out on muzzle energy. Anyway, have a great day my friend.
mljdeckard
Member
For black/brown bear, I would feel fine with a .308 or even a 7.62x39.
Grizzlies/Kodiaks/Polar bears are a different story. The problem with bears is, their heart rate is so slow, even if you hit them in the heart, they still have a few minutes left to ruin your day before you fall over. There are plenty of stories of big bears taking fatal hits from monster-sized guns that still manage to wreak some havoc.
Grizzlies/Kodiaks/Polar bears are a different story. The problem with bears is, their heart rate is so slow, even if you hit them in the heart, they still have a few minutes left to ruin your day before you fall over. There are plenty of stories of big bears taking fatal hits from monster-sized guns that still manage to wreak some havoc.
Flatbush Harry
Member
I own a couple of .308 Win hunting rifles, a couple of .30-06s, a .270 Win, a 6.5x55, a 7mm RM and a .375 H&H. Since I go to the range at least 2x/week and practice from field positions, I'd feel ok with any of them though I'd feel that the sub-.308 cal rifles were a bit lacking for bear.
As to stopping a charge, particularly at reasonably close range, that's going to require a CNS hit. Since I don't carry a LAWS rocket, I'd probably want any of the .308 calibers or my .375 (a Rem 700 XCR II with a B&C Sporter stock). Hitting a brain or spine shot at a rapidly shrinking distance is going to be a tough proposition no matter what you're using, but the .375 with a 260gr bullet has approximately the trajectory of .30-06 with a 180gr bullet and a lot more energy to improve the odds.
I read a wise statement a long time ago..."Don't practice until you can do it right, practice until you can't do it wrong". I spend no less than 10 shots per range session working on off-hand shots at 50 yards to try to develop conditioned reflexes even though I seriously doubt I'll ever need that skill...but that's why I'd be ok with a .308 if that's what I had and I got surprised by a bear. If I was was visiting in bear country, I'd be toting my .375. I practice with it at least once every 6-8 weeks to feel comfortable with it, using full power hand loads with 260gr AccuBonds or 250gr GameKings. Despite the practice, I'd expect to be on the losing end of a fight with a charging bear, so I have also practiced rapid prayer to grease the skids for my final trip.
FH
As to stopping a charge, particularly at reasonably close range, that's going to require a CNS hit. Since I don't carry a LAWS rocket, I'd probably want any of the .308 calibers or my .375 (a Rem 700 XCR II with a B&C Sporter stock). Hitting a brain or spine shot at a rapidly shrinking distance is going to be a tough proposition no matter what you're using, but the .375 with a 260gr bullet has approximately the trajectory of .30-06 with a 180gr bullet and a lot more energy to improve the odds.
I read a wise statement a long time ago..."Don't practice until you can do it right, practice until you can't do it wrong". I spend no less than 10 shots per range session working on off-hand shots at 50 yards to try to develop conditioned reflexes even though I seriously doubt I'll ever need that skill...but that's why I'd be ok with a .308 if that's what I had and I got surprised by a bear. If I was was visiting in bear country, I'd be toting my .375. I practice with it at least once every 6-8 weeks to feel comfortable with it, using full power hand loads with 260gr AccuBonds or 250gr GameKings. Despite the practice, I'd expect to be on the losing end of a fight with a charging bear, so I have also practiced rapid prayer to grease the skids for my final trip.
FH
Kachok
Member
My bad, I thought that was what you were trying to say. Sure the 308 can do more soft tissue damage, but I'll take a quick handling revolver over a 308 bolt at point blank range anyday in a defense situation, now a carbine AR-10 might be a different story
caribou
Member
30 cal from 150-200 grain moveing at 2700fps will do the job every time.
Brown Bears run with their heads down, like a Hound dog, and a shot to the brain or the follwing spine (Central Nourvus system) is the key to a Dead stop.
If your buddies being charged, hit 'em in the GUTS. They will stop and sit like a Dog, even attacking bullets the point of entry...
Ive posted numerous vids and pictures of what the wife and I do each Spring with Brown Bears and Mosin Nagant's
Its all about where you hit them, placement is everything, but snap shooting is not always an easy hit.....
Often the charge is a bluff and the gun going off is enough to turn them, or a warning shot in the air when you first see 'em....
Brown Bears run with their heads down, like a Hound dog, and a shot to the brain or the follwing spine (Central Nourvus system) is the key to a Dead stop.
If your buddies being charged, hit 'em in the GUTS. They will stop and sit like a Dog, even attacking bullets the point of entry...
Ive posted numerous vids and pictures of what the wife and I do each Spring with Brown Bears and Mosin Nagant's
Its all about where you hit them, placement is everything, but snap shooting is not always an easy hit.....
Often the charge is a bluff and the gun going off is enough to turn them, or a warning shot in the air when you first see 'em....
Chris-bob
Member
Every Brownie and Blackie I've seen taken up here with a heart shot dropped in it's spot dead. As to stopping a charging bear, I say it's a matter of luck. Some have it, some don't. Best to be prepared with the biggest ouch you can deliver to the charging bear.
Kachok
Member
Nothing odd about that the ruskies do it all the time. 7.62x54R is equivalent to our 308 and a hair behind out 30-06.Ive posted numerous vids and pictures of what the wife and I do each Spring with Brown Bears and Mosin Nagant's
Often the charge is a bluff and the gun going off is enough to turn them, or a warning shot in the air when you first see 'em....
I do not believe you can stop a 800 charging bear running 30 mph with a hand held weapon unless it is a grenade launcher. I heart shot bears and they ran 100 yds before rolling over and I thought I missed. they can kill you easily in that time. The rangers in Alaska did a study and proved bear spray is the much better way then a firearm. anyway a charging bear will never happen to 98% of hunters anyway
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Caribou summed it up as well as could be, and for sure he should know.
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