Hi cap magazines in California

sell to someone else. If it holds more than 10 rounds keep it out of California. It is a potential legal headache you don't need.

They aren't illegal to own, possess or use. He is correct about taking it apart and sending it as a parts kit. There are many standard capacity magazines here and it is completely legal to use and rebuild/repair them (keep in mind these are pre ban). Calguns.net has tons of info on this.

That is correct. I'm on a phone, so detailed posts are not happening. Sorry

It is completely legal to possess a large capacity magazine if you possessed it in California prior to the "magic date" (I don't recall what that is and don't want to look it up now).

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From Google search:

As part of expanding the definition of Assault Weapons with the passage of SB-23 in July 1999, prohibitions on magazine capacity sizes were introduced into the Penal Code. SB-23 added a new term, "large-capacity magazine." The penalty for violating Penal Code 12020 is a "wobbler" with a statute of limitations of three years.

'Magic date' is 1 January 2000.

'Parts kits' are fine; it is up to the CA resident to avoid a crime by not manufacturing a new large-capacity magazine by assembling such a kit inside California.

Librarian said:

'Magic date' is 1 January 2000.

'Parts kits' are fine; it is up to the CA resident to avoid a crime by not manufacturing a new large-capacity magazine by assembling such a kit inside California.

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You are correct, as far as it goes with saying that it's up to the resident to avoid the crime.

However, if said resident indicates to the seller that what he intends to do with it is, in fact, illegal, then the seller can be held responsible.

The difference may seem moot...but it's not. In this case, it's as simple as the two following circumstances:

1. Resident orders a high capacity magazine kit or components and doesn't tell the seller what he intends to do.

2. Resident orders a high capacity magazine and asks the seller to ship it as a "kit" in an obvious effort to circumvent the law.


In the second instance, the seller is being directly asked to do something illegal in accordance with California law by selling the high capacity magazine (his product) as a "kit" (not a product he's selling).

Some might argue that this is a fine line, or a grey area, in the law, but it's really not.

CA DOJ BOF has also stated that it is legal to import, buy, sell and possess magazine parts.

The magazine parts can then be used to:
1. Repair or rebuild existing legally owned large capacity magazines.
2. Build permanent 10 or less round magazines.
3. Kept as parts and never assembled while in CA.

It is becoming obvious to me why stores have notes in their ads: "We do not ship to California"

TheOld Man said:

It is becoming obvious to me why stores have notes in their ads: "We do not ship to California"

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I'll make it even simpler. There are two reasons.

1. Some kind of misguided political "statement." I can assure you that few to none of the Californians frequenting this website had anything to do with electing feinstein, yee or any of their ilk.

2. Too lazy to keep up with the laws. It's not really that hard.

Fishslayer said:

I'll make it even simpler. There are two reasons.

1. Some kind of misguided political "statement." I can assure you that few to none of the Californians frequenting this website had anything to do with electing feinstein, yee or any of their ilk.

2. Too lazy to keep up with the laws. It's not really that hard.

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The third and probably most important reason is that it has become too much of a pain in the butt to ship to states like California.

The truth of it is that its easier to just not ship to severely anti gun states than to jump through all of the hoops in order to legally do so. That is by design in said states. They're hoping to limit the number of hi cap mags and weapons by making it a PITA to deal with the laws there.

Unfortunately it has proven to make zero difference to people that don't follow the laws, like

The truth of it is that its easier to just not ship to severely anti gun states than to jump through all of the hoops in order to legally do so. That is by design in said states.

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True. This is a state-sponsored campaign of Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD).

Frank Ettin said:

It is completely legal to possess a large capacity magazine if you possessed it in California prior to the "magic date" (I don't recall what that is and don't want to look it up now).

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According to my Google-Fu there are 2 magic dates. July 1999 and 1 January 2000 depending on which penal code you look up. Thankfully they are not far apart to make a large grey area.

I would sell to someone else just to avoid the hassle, and have. I have sold firearm parts and accessories on Gunbroker and make it very clear I do not ship or sell firearm components overseas or to Draconian states where the item is illegal.

9mmepiphany said:

It really isn't a grey area, you just seem to be reading it as such because you basic premise, in (1) and (2) is incorrect

The CA DOJ, through a memo from the CA AG, has established that:
(1) should read follow the law
(2) should read legal in disassembled form

While this may not have been the original intent of the law, it is in complete compliance with it as written...and will remain so unless it is changed through the legislative process

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Hmmm...

So are you saying that there is no legal culpability to a seller if it turns out that the buyer has been determined to have violated the law, especially if he had reason to believe this was the intent of the buyer?

I looked up California law on the issue of high capacity magazines and interestingly it had a lot of room for leeway in certain aspects. However, it is not legal to import a fully assembled high capacity magazine into California, nor is it legal to assemble a completely new high capacity magazine from parts which are legally imported.

So, the buyer cannot have an assembled high capacity magazine shipped to him. He can have any number of magazine components shipped to him and he can use those components to repair existing, legally owned high capacity magazines. Even to the point where there are no original magazine components left.

But he can't take those individual components he bought and assemble them into a new magazine. That's illegal.

Now, given that, if it's clear that the INTENT of the person buying the magazine wishes to have it disassembled and shipped so that he can reassemble it into a new magazine (not use for repairs to existing magazines), then are you saying that the seller has no legal culpability?

I'm not asking how difficult this would be to prosecute. Simply whether or not it's possible for the seller to be held liable, in part, because he had reasonable belief/knowledge that the buyer was intending to violate the law.

According to my Google-Fu there are 2 magic dates. July 1999 and 1 January 2000 depending on which penal code you look up. Thankfully they are not far apart to make a large grey area.

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Unless the law itself has an implementation date in it (or, the law is an 'urgency measure' and it takes effect immediately upon signing) CA laws take effect the January following the date the Governor signs the bill (or allows it to become law without his signature.)

SB 23 was an 'ordinary' bill in its implementation.

Now, given that, if it's clear that the INTENT of the person buying the magazine wishes to have it disassembled and shipped so that he can reassemble it into a new magazine (not use for repairs to existing magazines), then are you saying that the seller has no legal culpability?

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How would you have the knowledge of the buyer's intent?

9mmepiphany said:

That isn't completely true. He can legally assemble the parts into a new 10-rd magazine...this is often done for handguns for which there are no 10-rd magazines manufactured

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This is true. However, this means that the magazine can't hold MORE than 10 rounds when assembled as such. Such an assembly is, indeed, perfectly legal and is one example of the many surprisingly legal aspects of California law on this that I found.

9mmepiphany said:

The simple answer is Yes... I refer you to post #9 above

Because there is no crime unless the magazines are illegally assembled...they can be legally assembled

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My question, though, dealt with the illegal assembly...not the legal assembly.

9mmepiphany said:

If you had such certain knowledge of the intent of a purchaser, wouldn't you feel obligated to report it to the authorities?

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Heh! Nope..I would, however, feel obligated not to be complicit by assisting him to violate the law. Until he actually commits the crime, there is nothing to report. Law enforcement typically can't/won't do anything unless there's an actual violation of the law. (Not talking, of course, about a conspiracy to commit some violent crime which they may investigate, or other such matters.)



I condede that there are a great many completely legal ways and means concerning California's high capacity magazine laws, both for the buyer and the seller. And because of this, it's easy to meet the wickets required to make it legal.

On the part of the buyer, much depends upon the circumstances and the opinion of the prosecuter in his jurisdiction.

http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/DOJ-large-cap-magazines-2005-11-10.pdf


I suppose that even if there were provable foreknowledge on the part of the out-of-state seller AND assuming he could be held somewhat liable, it would be difficult to prosecute out-of-state.


Ah, well...I think I'll quit wondering about all the what-ifs and just leave it be.

Librarian said:

How would you have the knowledge of the buyer's intent?

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Consider it a hypothetical scenario where the buyer contacts you about a sale and it comes out in the conversation.

I'm not talking about assuming out of hand...either you're told outright, or by whatever means it becomes obvious to you.

Simply telling you that the magazine must be disassembled to legally ship it to California would not, in itself, constitute certain knowledge...or even reasonable knowledge.

You are correct, as far as it goes with saying that it's up to the resident to avoid the crime.

However, if said resident indicates to the seller that what he intends to do with it is, in fact, illegal, then the seller can be held responsible.

The difference may seem moot...but it's not. In this case, it's as simple as the two following circumstances:

1. Resident orders a high capacity magazine kit or components and doesn't tell the seller what he intends to do.

2. Resident orders a high capacity magazine and asks the seller to ship it as a "kit" in an obvious effort to circumvent the law.


In the second instance, the seller is being directly asked to do something illegal in accordance with California law by selling the high capacity magazine (his product) as a "kit" (not a product he's selling).

Some might argue that this is a fine line, or a grey area, in the law, but it's really not.

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+1 I fully realize that everybody at Calguns illegally sell hi-caps by taking the spring and follower out of tht tube and declaring it a rebuild kit. The reason nobody has yet been prosecuted is likely the fact that Cali has been bankrupt for several years and doesn't have enforcement capability to go that far down the food chain.... YET.

What is clear that if a seller takes an action that any normal person could forsee is instrumental in a crime being committed, he is an accomplice or conspirator in that crime.

I suppose that even if there were provable foreknowledge on the part of the out-of-state seller AND assuming he could be held somewhat liable, it would be difficult to prosecute out-of-state.

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True. They will be going after the buyers who purchased five "rebuild kits" on Calguns and asking them to explain why it is they posess five hi-caps with no spare parts. Case closed.

Until he actually commits the crime, there is nothing to report. Law enforcement typically can't/won't do anything unless there's an actual violation of the law.

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Sure. They wouldn't be at all interested if some guy had bought a bunch of fertilizer and fuel oil......

It's true that cali DOJ is overloaded and understaffed and have bigger fish to fry, like the gun sellers who are selling illegal straw sales and/or channeling guns to criminals. The hi-cap magazine thing is under the radar right now, no guarantee it will always be.

Well, obviously you used the old parts to fix your dryer.

Simply telling you that the magazine must be disassembled to legally ship it to California would not, in itself, constitute certain knowledge...or even reasonable knowledge.

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Nope. Why would it?

I could understand your stretch if he said "I need a new hi-cap mag... its legal for you to ship me one if you disassemble it 1st".

danez71 said:

Nope. Why would it?

I could understand your stretch if he said "I need a new hi-cap mag... its legal for you to ship me one if you disassemble it 1st".

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And that's my point.