• You are using the old Black Responsive theme. We have installed a new dark theme for you, called UI.X. This will work better with the new upgrade of our software. You can select it at the bottom of any page.

Face to face sale/purchase/sale question (legality?)

Status
Not open for further replies.
M

MacTech

Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2008
Messages
774
Location
Sector ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
I was just stumped by one of my co-workers while we were discussing firearm stuff....

What would the legality of this type of F2F sale be? (Both purchasers are legal, and there is no legal requirement for F2F transactions to go through a FFL or fill out a 4473

Person 1 purchases a gun at a gun store/FFL with his own money, but then decides he doesn't like the gun, and is unable to return it to the store
Person 1 sells that particular gun to person 2
Person 2 has the gun for at least 24 to 48 hours
Person 1 has sellers remorse, and convinces person 2 to sell the gun back to him
person 1 buys the gun back from person 2

Now, let's say for some reason, law enforcement ends up asking person 1 if they still own the firearm in question....

Would person 1 be able to legally say "I did own that gun, but i sold it" even though he is in possession of the gun?

I told my co-worker I didn't know, and it was a dangerous legal gray area, the statement was in fact technically true, but not a complete statement, and I'm sure law enforcement would be less than impressed if they somehow discovered person 1 did own the gun after all, even though it was a legal sale both times...
 
The LE question you wrote was "if they still own the firearm...".
Yes. The rest is irrelevant to the question. #1 does own the firearm, having just re-purchased it.
No would be lying to LE / impeding an investigation, whatever else they can throw at #1 hoping it will stick, because they are irritated that #1 lied to them.
Silence may be an option, I am not an attorney.
 
Now, let's say for some reason, law enforcement ends up asking person 1 if they still own the firearm in question....

Would person 1 be able to legally say "I did own that gun, but i sold it" even though he is in possession of the gun?
Click to expand...

If he's asked if he owns the gun, and he does, then that is how he must answer (if he even chooses to answer.) It does not matter how many times he's owned it.
 
I think the first question I would ask is why they are asking. What brought the gun to their attention? Was it used in a crime? If so, when? (Traced by the "sample casing" on new guns or something similar). If the crime was during the time his friend owned it, he had better be straight with the whole story,,,,, (and hope he has an alibi for the time the otherperson had it.)
 
MedWheeler said:
If he's asked if he owns the gun, and he does, then that is how he must answer (if he even chooses to answer.) It does not matter how many times he's owned it.
Click to expand...
It depends entirely on the state and who is asking the question and in what context.

This is not a simple yes or no question.
 
Here's my advice:

Don't take legal advice from anonomous strangers on the internet.


Your question is one that can have different answers in different places. Get local legal advice.


Willie

.
 
"Would person 1 be able to legally say "I did own that gun, but i sold it" even though he is in possession of the gun?"

That is "lying by omission" in not telling the complete story.

If the police find that #1 actually has possession, I can see "impeding an investigation" and "lying to a law enforcement officer" as likely charges.
 
If person #1 still had the gun in their possession why would law enforcement be asking about it? It obviously didn't turn up at a crime scene if person #1 still had it.

My reply (right or wrong) assuming they weren't tracking down a firearm reported stolen, is that it is none of your business what I own for firearms, federal law prohibits a firearms registration. (Note this is still assuming I had it in my possession).
 
I'd be asking them why they wish to know, and not talking to them, ever, about anything, without an attorney present and speaking for me, or telling me what is ok to discuss, and when to discuss it.
 
MacTech said:
...Now, let's say for some reason, law enforcement ends up asking person 1 if they still own the firearm in question....
Click to expand...
The simple fact is that person 1 does own the gun -- he bought it back.

One might choose to decline to answer, but the only correct answer is "yes."
 
A very weird question in deed. I would first want to know why your friend asked such a question. Secondly it all depends on when the police were to question person #1. The only reason LEO would be asking is if person #1 was a suspect in a crime and they happened to know he at one time had such and such a gun and most likely he'd have to have it registered for them to even know without them having the gun in LE possession. If the leo asked when person #2 has it then person #1 can say NO otherwise #1 would have to say YES.
 
Frank Ettin said:
The simple fact is that person 1 does own the gun -- he bought it back.

One might choose to decline to answer, but the only correct answer is "yes."
Click to expand...
He asked about the legality of the answer, not an opinion on the morality or 'correctness' of the answer. ;)

And I Willie have given the only possible 'correct' answer to his query.
 
No grey area here. #1 owns the gun. What would make you think yes but I sold it would be a truthful response.
 
Frank Ettin said:
Phooey! In context the only legal answer is a truthful answer or a statement that one declines to answer.
Click to expand...
Incorrect.

As Willie and I stated it depends entirely on what state, which LEO, and the circumstances surrounding the asking of the question.

Or are you suggesting that it is illegal in every state under any circumstances?
 
AFAIK it is always illegal, in one way or another, to lie to an LEO. Furthermore there can be other adverse legal consequences to lying to a cop.

Among other things, getting caught in a lie can be used against you and thus ruin your credibility. That is not a matter or morality. It is a real, practical, legal concern.

Decline to answer if you wish, but if you do decide to answer, answer truthfully.
 
Last edited:
brboyer said:
Incorrect.

As Willie and I stated it depends entirely on what state, which LEO, and the circumstances surrounding the asking of the question.

Or are you suggesting that it is illegal in every state under any circumstances?
Click to expand...


Taking "remaining silent"/declining to answer out of the equation.....

I'd like to know which states, which LEO, and which circumstances it is Legally OK to not tell the truth in the scenario outlined by the OP.



.
 
I'd like to know which states, which LEO, and which circumstances it is Legally OK to not tell the truth in the scenario outlined by the OP.
Click to expand...

I'm not a lawyer but I can't imagine it's ever legal to lie to police. Which is why you should never answer questions from police. Do your communicating through your lawyer.
 
To this:

Now, let's say for some reason, law enforcement ends up asking person 1 if they still own the firearm in question....

Would person 1 be able to legally say "I did own that gun, but i sold it" even though he is in possession of the gun?
Click to expand...

..brboyer writes:

This is not a simple yes or no question.
Click to expand...

I believe that it is.

The use, in the scenario, of the word "still" by the LEO indicates that he is indeed wondering if, since some event, the subject has come to no longer be in ownership of the gun. But, that "some event" is not identified in the question. So, is the officer asking if the subject "still" owns the weapon since his first purchase of it, or since his second?

Now, if the LEO's question was "did you own that weapon?", I'd agree that the answer of "yes, but I sold it." would be technically true, even if the subject had re-taken ownership. But, since the LEO is asking (in the specific scenario given) in the present tense, the answer, to be correct, must be confined to the present tense.

I base this on the assumption (using the text of the OP's query) that the LEO's question is "Do you still own the (or that) gun?"
 
Last edited:
Why would a LEO ask "Still" or "Did you own" rather than "Do you own this firearm"?
There's a lot of word gymnastics going on here.
Interesting thread.
 
Trying to do linguistic gymnastics when dealing with LEO who are conducting an investigation is an almost certain path to trouble. Answer the question truthfully, or don't answer it at all. Either one is acceptable.

brboyer said:
Or are you suggesting that it is illegal in every state under any circumstances [to lie to police]?
Click to expand...
I'll suggest it. In fact, I'll state that while I have not researched the statutes of all 50 states, I'm pretty sure that if the police are working* and asking you questions, lying to them is a crime. Doing so generally goes by names like: (1) Impeding an Investigation; or (2) Obstructing Governmental Operations.

Even if it's not, if you do wind up charged with something, you don't really want the prosecutor asking, "Isn't it true that you initially lied to the police?"

*=As opposed to situations where you tell a Tall Fish Tale to your buddy, who happens to be a LEO.
 
Taking "remaining silent"/declining to answer out of the equation.....

I'd like to know which states, which LEO, and which circumstances it is Legally OK to not tell the truth in the scenario outlined by the OP.
Click to expand...

^^^
This. Still waiting for the answer...

and I agree it's best to answer through your attorney. However, few of us are prepared for the intimidation factor of the surprise knock at your door. If you are lucky enough to get a knock, that is...
 
Field Tester said:
Why would a LEO ask "Still" or "Did you own" rather than "Do you own this firearm"?
Click to expand...
Who can say why it was phrased thus. The point of the question is, however, clear -- current ownership by the subject of the gun. And, as related by the OP the subject did, at the time, own the gun.

The only truthful response is "yes." The only legally acceptable/appropriate response is either "yes" or "I decline to answer."

With regard to the latter possible answer, be advise that the Supreme Court has ruled, essentially, that a failure to respond to a question during a non-custodial interrogation can be commented upon by the prosecutor in a subsequent prosecution (Salinas v. Texas, 133 S. Ct. 2174, 186 L. Ed. 2d 376 (2013)).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

CoRoMo
  • Locked
Transfer & Face to Face Question
Replies
19
Views
675
Bubba613
B
T
  • Locked
Face-to-face sales?
Replies
5
Views
399
EOD Guy
E
K
  • Locked
Considered a "straw purchase"? (Scenario)
Replies
18
Views
1K
Sam1911
S
J
  • Locked
F2F sale questions and owner dying
Replies
6
Views
832
Frank Ettin
Frank Ettin
B
  • Locked
Long Gun Purchase Questions
Replies
1
Views
277
SIOP
S
Back
Top