Face-to-face sales?

[TheArchDuke]

Ok, bear with me, I'm a native Californian who has only recently gotten into firearms. This concept is a little foreign to me.

If all of my firearms purchases were done face to face (in the legal way) would there be any record of what I have for the government to keep?

I guess what I'm asking is whether or not paperwork is still required to be turned in somewhere.

If not, here's a hypothetical situation. Say I'm moving from california to a state where face to face sales are legal. If I sell the one firearm I have before moving, would the government have record of that? Would I be able to sell my gun, move out of state, and only buy face to face for the rest of my life and thus, no one wouldn't know I had any at all?

 

[Art Eatman]

Probably oughta keep responses to those who actually know California laws on the subject. Other states' laws don't pertain.

, Art

 

[atlctyslkr]

Here's my limited knowledge on gun records.

The Firearms Owners' Protection Act of 1986 (FOPA), prohibts the FEDERAL government from keeping a national gun owner/serial number database. There is a defacto record when an FFL sells a gun. Doesn't matter if it's new or used. Every new gun gets sold by an FFL at least once unless it's for LE right from the start, then there's a different sort of record. In short there is the FFL logbook but there is no national database. In short a trace can be done but it takes alot of legwork.

Other sources of records include insurance company records, if you have declared individual firearms on your policy. Ever been pulled over by the cops and had to declare your firearm? I have, they run the number to see if it's been reported stolen. I am the only owner of my carry piece but now the police have a record of the serial number in their traffic stop report.

There are records kept by the FBI on stolen/lost firearms so if you report one stolen there will be a record kept. This information is duplicated/transmitted to state police agencies. As far as how long it is retained I do not know.

Unless you happen to live in a state like New York where handguns are registered to owners there is no easy way for guns to be traced. It's prefectly legal here in Georgia for me to sell/trade my guns to a private individual as long as I resonably believe they are not a felon. Not so in other states. In NY there is a state database and all transfers must go through an FFL and the person receive the gun must have a permit or apply for one.

Most states have a law that allows the police to seize your guns if you are arrested for a felony or under a restraining order. If that were to happen to me I could just simply give my guns to a family member or friend to hold or sell them all to them for $1 and draw up a dummy bill of sale. That won't work in some states.

I understand your fear of the GUBMENT having a record of what you own. Chances are unless you did a back-of-the-trunk sale for cash there is a record somewhere. Even if you bought it at a gunshow or got it from an inheritance, someone, somewhere, somehow could piece the chain of ownership back together. You can't outrun paperwork. I don't worry too much about it because I think the laws here where I live are restrictive enough but lienient at the same time.

If the ATF ever got all the FFL logbooks past and going forward computerized then LE would have a serious jump on tracing guns. Once they knew the first owner or one in the chain they would eventually get to you.

 

[TheArchDuke]

ah poo.



Not that I'm worried. Just curious.



Thanks for the info. Yeah I never thought about insurance. I wouldn't want my secret stash of "life preservers" to be lost in a fire with no way to replace them.

 

[SIOP]

When the time comes for confiscation, it won't matter whether or not a particular firearm can be traced to you. All the government will need to know is that at some point in your life you exhibited an interest in firearms, then use the rubber hose technique to get you to fess up. If you ever subscribed to a gun magazine, were a member of the NRA, bought ammo with a credit card, etc., they know who you are.

 

[EOD Guy]

If not, here's a hypothetical situation. Say I'm moving from california to a state where face to face sales are legal. If I sell the one firearm I have before moving, would the government have record of that? Would I be able to sell my gun, move out of state, and only buy face to face for the rest of my life and thus, no one wouldn't know I had any at all?

If you LEGALLY sell the firearm, the California DOJ will know because California law (with a few exceptions) requires that you transfer the firearm through a dealer.