Sig arm brace -- important legal update

Well I sure wouldn't call it elegant...

I think iff'n I was to go that route, I'd possibly give it a go in 300 Blackout due to the short barrel ballistics of that particular round.

Here are my thoughts:
1. The brace works suprisingly well as a shoulder stock regardless of how it looks. In fact it makes a much better stock and arm brace. Would I choose it above conventional options even after I get my stamp? No, unless there was a legal issue like hunting with NFA weapons.

2. I think I got mine for about $89 and am glad to have used it during the long wait which I went through at the worst time (it has gotten much better).

3. People really underestimate how easy it is to own NFA weapons and make a much bigger deal over complience than it is. It's not rocket science, you don't surrender your 4th Amendment rights or anything like the rummor mongers claim.

4. I've waited almost as long as current NFA wait times for parts and magazines (and much longer for match grade or custom-made barrels). Instant gratification seems to be a youthfully follw but logically if you want to do something that takes a long time (like going to school, building a carreer, or loosing weight) the same time is going to pass whether you do it or not.

4a. The OP seems to imply that the brace makes one less likely to get a stamp. Because it allows you to try things and provides some gratification during the wait, I can see it encouraging people to get a stamp.

Mike

This is like Ford vs Chevy...some on both sides of the fence.

The brace flat out works.

After my last NFA item taking 3 months to get to SOT and the 11 months to process the paperwork. I'm done with NFA.

If you don't know about NFA, it's not our job to try to explain the benefits.

In the end it's a personal choice just like many things in life. For me, the brace is a great device and I'll be buying more.

I'm not really a fan of it. I dig my 16" barrel and my particular preference is a bit of a longer barrel. But then again, the whole NFA thing is moronic at best. Suppressors and short barrels should be over the counter transactions. Period.

dogtown tom said:

My thoughts are just the opposite. I can't see paying $150 for an "arm brace" when an SBR stamp is $200.

The arm brace is a poor substitute for a real shoulder stock.

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Have you ever tried it? It is pretty damn good.

People always say - oh its just $200 for the stamp - don't forget the cost to set up the trust , lawyers feed, engraving the receiver etc. It adds up.

It is also very VERY nice to have an AR that keeps the "pistol" status - especially when you travel across states and do not have to worry about the legality.

Theohazard said:

It could. All you need is a 10/22 stock with an AR-style collapsable stock and a "buffer tube" where you can cut off the notches. Once the notches are gone, the arm brace should fit just fine. And since you can no longer attach a stock to it, you don't have to worry about getting busted for constructive possession of an SBR.

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My 10/22 began life as a rifle--you can't just lop off the barrel, add an ugly stock with a fake buffer tube and declare it a pistol. It's an illegal SBR in that instance no matter what you call it.

You would have to start with a 10/22 that began life as a dedicated pistol receiver, like the Challenger. I already have a 10/22, so the stamp and barrel work would cost less than a new gun, and then I could use any stock I wanted.

Elkins45 said:

My 10/22 began life as a rifle--you can't just lop off the barrel, add an ugly stock with a fake buffer tube and declare it a pistol. It's an illegal SBR in that instance no matter what you call it.

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That's no longer true. Now you can make a rifle into a pistol and vice versa.

TrailWolf

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom View Post
My thoughts are just the opposite. I can't see paying $150 for an "arm brace" when an SBR stamp is $200.

The arm brace is a poor substitute for a real shoulder stock.

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Have you ever tried it? It is pretty damn good.

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Yes, I have..........IMHO it's poor substitute for a real stock. YMMV

Theohazard said:

That's no longer true. Now you can make a rifle into a pistol and vice versa.

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From the July 25, 2011 communication from ATF regarding the Thompson Center case:

Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4), is made when a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, is assembled or produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle. Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA.

Full text here: https://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf

If there's a more recent ruling superseding this, please direct me to it. Otherwise I believe the text quoted above is contrary to your understanding. In a nutshell, you are correct ONLY in the case of a firearm (such as the T/C Contender) originally produced to be configured as both.

I use a Thordsen buffer tube cover with cheek rest on my pistol lower when shooting the 300 BLK 9" barrel. With a low recoil round like 300 BLK all shooting positions seem comfortable.

I handled a very nice looking Sig pistol yesterday, .308, with the arm brace included. I'm not sure I want to deal with a .308 pistol and an arm brace regardless of how I can operate it.

So help out a newcomer to this conversation here.

I've wanted an 'arm brace' on a Desert Eagle for a number of years.

If I can figure a way to hang that Sig brace on the wooden support attachment from the pistol's grip that I would need to add, then it is legal to be fired from the shoulder?
Or does this brace require being fitted to a tube or directly to the frame?

Even without my arm being through the brace?

One last, where might I read up on rulings concerning this brace.
Maybe a brace owner could post a copy of the accompanying letter here?

Looking to learn, Thanks for any possible info,
JT

JT-AR-MG42 said:

So help out a newcomer to this conversation here.

I've wanted an 'arm brace' on a Desert Eagle for a number of years.

If I can figure a way to hang that Sig brace on the wooden support attachment from the pistol's grip that I would need to add, then it is legal to be fired from the shoulder?
Or does this brace require being fitted to a tube or directly to the frame?

Even without my arm being through the brace?

One last, where might I read up on rulings concerning this brace.
Maybe a brace owner could post a copy of the accompanying letter here?

Looking to learn, Thanks for any possible info,
JT

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Here you go JT: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/04/03/arm-braces-pistols-legal-fired-shoudler/

I think Theohazard is confused. You can go back and forth if you start with a pistol not with a rifle.

Mike

Elkins45 said:

I believe the text quoted above is contrary to your understanding.

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Arizona_Mike said:

I think Theohazard is confused. You can go back and forth if you start with a pistol not with a rifle.

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You guys are completely right. I should know better considering I used to work at an LGS. Honestly, ATF and NFA stuff is complicated enough that it's way too easy to confuse yourself if you don't keep up on it.

Theohazard said:

You guys are completely right. I should know better considering I used to work at an LGS. Honestly, ATF and NFA stuff is complicated enough that it's way too easy to confuse yourself if you don't keep up on it.

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You want to know how I immediately suspected you were mistaken?

I read your response and thought, "That seems like a very reasonable and customer friendly position for a federal regulatory agency to take." That's when I knew it couldn't be true.

Actually I shouldn't say stuff like that. My limited dealings with ATF (submitted two Form 1 and a Form 4 on a trust) have been entirely uneventful. Slow, but that's not their fault.

Yes, I have..........IMHO it's poor substitute for a real stock. YMMV

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It is not designed as a real stock (or SBR lower), nor was it meant to be a substitute for a real stock. It just happens to work well if properly configured. A few vendors now sell pistol tubes i.e. KAK tube which adds length to the SB15.

If you like your SBR lower with a standard stock, great.

But not everyone wants to go through the hassle with the ATF/NFA route, nor do we all want the government to have knowledge (and registration) of the firearms we own. And many law-abiding gun owners feel that the NFA laws are bogus. Somehow a 14.5"-barreled AR15 is much more dangerous than a standard 16" M4????



Anyway, here is my 10.5" pistol build with the same LOP compared to my current AR build (which will be a 16" Midlength). Both shoulder just the same.

It has for ARs.

I think it's very neat, I've always wanted a short AR with about a 10 inch bbl but never wanted to deal with all the NFA stuff.

SB-15 works great and I put one each on a BCM 11.5" upper and a parts build up with a DD 10.5" barrel,both run great.I used the KAK Industry Super SIG SB-15 dedicated pistol buffer tube.The whole NFA thing is really a joke for SBR/SBS/AOW,Suppressors,etc.

If you don't aready have some NFA stuff then maybe, but for $70 more than the cost of the brace you will have the stamp and won't have to worry about the legal status of the brace.

OTOH there is the advantage of not having to ask for permission to cross state lines with an NFA item.

How does the brace impact those states with "assault weapon" bans? Since its a pistol can you own one in a restrictive state like CA? Does it circumvent the rules because it isn't a rifle?

If you don't aready have some NFA stuff then maybe, but for $70 more than the cost of the brace you will have the stamp and won't have to worry about the legal status of the brace.

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Actually its ~$70 + ~$60 for the stock more to go the NFA route.

wally said:

Actually its ~$70 + ~$60 for the stock more to go the NFA route.

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I don't follow. The brace sells for around $130 and the stamp is $200. Are you adding the cost of a regular stock?

To the original question, YES, I had no interest in the whole SBR deal because of the state I live in (Illinois) and the extra "hoops" involved in getting a tax stamp, getting permission to transport across state lines, etc. In Illinois, I'd have to get a C&R FFL, and a tax stamp and then I'd have to get permission every year as my training range is in Iowa. Way too much hoop jumping for me. I'm primarily interested in 9mm MP5 format guns...I'll have an AR-15 eventually but I'm fine with a 16" barrel.

So, I really had no intention of having an SBR and then the BATF rules that the brace is OK to be fired from the shoulder - It's not a stock and I was skeptical. Then I shot an MP5 pistol with a brace and in 9mm it's *WAY* better than shooting it in pistol form. I agree it's not quite what I want as if I had my druthers I'd druther have a folding stock but that's not gonna happen.

So, yeah, I'm in the "SBR" want but it'll be a pistol with Sig brace and that'll work out fine for me. It's not much cheaper but it is competitive price wise albeit a bit more expensive. I went from "I don't want an SBR'd MP5" to "I *got* to get me one of these!" on an MP5K pistol with Sig brace.

No tax stamp, no permission to transport, no C&R FFL hoops.

VooDoo

I don't follow. The brace sells for around $130 and the stamp is $200. Are you adding the cost of a regular stock?

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Bingo!

I should have emphasized stock....I'm aware that we can have folding braces and that they are available (but I seriously thank you for the heads up - it's the thought that counts! ) in various folding configs now. My personal choice is a full on stock and the brace, while I think it's an awesome idea and works pretty dang well as a pseudo stock, is not quite "perfect" in that role.

It's a compromise for me but it's better than no "device" at all on the butt end of an MP5 and for that purpose fills the need 90%. I personally feel that the ATF ruling that braces are OK for the shoulder is one step away from removing the SBR from the NFA list but I think that is years away.

Until that time the brace will do in place of a stock on those firearms I prefer in an SBR configuration.

VooDoo