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Sig arm brace -- important legal update

Discussion in 'Legal' started by kimberkid, Jul 10, 2014.

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  1. kimberkid

    kimberkid Member

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    I already have several SBR's & suppressors so I'm no virgin to NFA.

    I was all set to send in form 1's to SBR an AK, C-93 pistol & V-51 pistol and another AR lower ... then came the Arm Brace, I put one on an AK, took it out & shot it and ever since have been asking myself, why bother with the expense, regulations and the frustrating wait?
     
  2. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    My thoughts are just the opposite. I can't see paying $150 for an "arm brace" when an SBR stamp is $200.

    The arm brace is a poor substitute for a real shoulder stock.
     
  3. wally

    wally Member

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    $150 s MSRP, you'll buy them for less at gun shows or on-line. Don't forget that a stock starts at ~$50 & up and needs to be added after you get the stamp.

    I think the arm-brace is a great place to start, you can always do the stamp later and have something to shoot while waiting for the stamp. If you don't like shooting with the arm brace you probably won't like shooting the SBR either and the arm brace will likely be easier to sell than an SBR.
     
  4. horsemen61

    horsemen61 Member

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    I am now more interested than ever before no huge wait oh yeah huge plus
     
  5. basicblur

    basicblur Member

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    Still waiting on tax stamps for 3 silencers (almost 8 months now) - after buying, I started thinking about a SBR, but after doing my research, I just bought a Tavor and avoided all the headache, paperwork, time, legal hassles, and the darn thing is shorter than 'bout all SBR ARs.

    I live in VA and belong to a gun club in NC, so there's the added hassle of asking the ATF "mother may I" to carry a SBR across the state line.

    For anyone that's interested in the Arm Brace, I got an e-mail from SIG today - you can order from them for sale price of $124.95 (says regular is $139) and you get a free 36" Rifle Bag ($129 value).

    You have to call (866) 619-1128 or (603) 418-8102 Monday through Friday, 8:30AM to 8:00PM EST.
     
  6. Buzznrose

    Buzznrose Member

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    Has the Arm Brace changed your mind about SBR-ing?

    Ordered one today from Sig...$125 and the free case. I was gonna go the SBR NFA route and then really got turned off by all the added hassles (can't take it out of state without permission, can't pass it on to an heir, can't sell it easily, can't move to another state, etc.)

    I'll deal with the brace...too many folks saying too many good things to believe its not at least worth the try....
     
  7. Anmut

    Anmut Member

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    When it first came out I thought it was gimicky, but watching the reviews and shouldering a few AR's and AK's with them, I'm impressed. I'll probably be adding one to my PAP.
     
  8. Superpsy

    Superpsy Member

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    You can pass it on to heirs via trusts.

    To answer the question, it definitely has....for ARs. ;)
     
  9. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    Sure you can.....just swap in a 16"bbl.


    Seriously? Never heard of a Form 5 have ya?;)



    It's VERY easy......just remove the short bbl and sell upper and lower separately. While ATF would like you to tell them you did this its not required.


    Huh?:scrutiny: You need to reconsider the source of all your incorrect NFA information.
     
  10. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    I don't believe trusts have "heirs".

    If you die, any NFA firearms that were registered to you (an individual) can be transferred tax free to your heirs via a Form 5.
     
  11. Buzznrose

    Buzznrose Member

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    Okay, so two of your answers require changing the gun from an SBR to a 16" rifle...so you support my point

    Passing on to heirs is not automatic, it requires more paperwork from the BATF

    Remove and sell parts separately? Again, gotta change the configuration and deal with potentially separate buyers...

    And the whole "trust" deal means I have to pay another fee for the thing...

    All this to be able to put a stock on the gun that is, from many accounts, marginally better than the brace, functionally speaking. Sure, a b5 stock is better, but I'm not convinced its hundreds of dollars in fees and a 9 month wait better.

    If we didn't have to deal with this stupid regulation nightmare, I'd be all down for a full blown mk18, but for now, I'll pass on the BATF BS and run the Sig brace
     
  12. kimberkid

    kimberkid Member

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    I wanted to get the feeling of the general population, and now that there is some conversation flowing here's my opinion ...

    My answer is yes and no ... It depends on what it is.

    I'm of the opinion some SBR's are more important than others ... The winner and the only one I'm going to SBR for now is the PAP-85 AK pistol I originally bought to SBR, then bought the Arm Brace for ... At this point I'll wait & see what develops with the ATF if anything ... and see what comes out for the HK line before I buy any more Arm Braces.

    My reasons have already been mentioned above, but the main thing was the wait. I was all ready to extend the barrel on the AK pistol & add the required parts to make it 922r compliant which I would have to do anyway when I SBR'd it but this way I could play with it while I waited for the stamp, I'd already even bought the parts ... then I heard the ATF's position on the Arm Brace and decided what the hell.

    In the center is the PAP-85, it was the first one. It's built with the SiG Arm Brace and a hinge from ACE Rifle Stocks so it will fold. The top one is an AMD-65 I built from a kit ... because it's a pistol I couldn't put the forward grip on it without doing the AOW thing so I modified a Romanian gas tube and put AKM hand guards on it.
    Last but not least is the AR pistol and while I used an extended length pistol buffer tube, I wish it was about an inch longer.

    P7110697.jpg
     
  13. justice06rr

    justice06rr Member

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    And my thoughts are the exact opposite. :)

    You also are ommiting the other costs and hassles of registering an SBR, whether you use a Trust, CLEO approval, etc.

    I've handled SBR's and also have an AR pistol with the SB15. The brace is not a "poor" subsitute at all if properly configured to the correct LOP. It actually works very well when shouldered with the correct LOP. There are a few options for pistol tubes now that allow a longer LOP using the brace.

    The biggest downside of SBR's, is that you have to register them to the government after paying them a stupid tax stamp... and waiting for months.
    Now if you have an SBR, then more power to you. But some of us like to fly under the radar, and don't like paying these gov't extortion fees.
     
  14. Buzznrose

    Buzznrose Member

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    Totally agree with this....

    Would I prefer to put a quality adjustable stock on my AR pistol? Yes.

    Is it worth the hassle over simply using the SB15 brace? Nope...not for me...
     
  15. AlexanderA
    • Contributing Member

    AlexanderA Member

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    This "arm brace" thing is making a mockery of the whole SBR/SBS category. By any reasonable standard, it's a "stock," even though, for technical reasons, the ATF has ruled that it's not a "stock" (I wouldn't put it past them to change their minds on this).

    What this underlines is the need to simply remove SBR's/SBS's from the NFA entirely. They were originally placed in the NFA when it was proposed that the NFA regulate handguns, and the SBR/SBS regulation was a corollary to that, to the extent that handgun-like weapons could be made from long guns. Then handguns were taken out of the proposed NFA, but, perhaps through oversight, the SBR's/SBS's were left in.

    Technology has bypassed the NFA in many ways. For example, modern semiautomatic rifles are just as effective as machine guns, in practical use. From a purely logical viewpoint, then, either we regulate AR-15's like FA M16's (which isn't going to happen, since that horse is already out of the barn), or we regulate neither of them.

    Once we get past the emotion, the only reasonable thing is to simply repeal the entire NFA. It's long outlived its usefulness (if it ever had any to start with).
     
  16. boricua9mm

    boricua9mm Member

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    The only "hassle" of a trust is in the initial setup. It's flushing out the details with a lawyer, or going at it yourself by creating your own. Once you have a trust, a vacuum is created in your collection and you WILL be adding more NFA items.

    No offense to anyone, but many of us find the brace to be hideous. On an AR pistol, perhaps not as bad, but on anything else they look atrocious.

    The Gov't radar excuse doesn't make much sense. Almost everyone on this board had filled out a Form 4473 at one point in their lives. Make no mistake, the Gov't already knows you have guns. The only ones they might not be aware of are ones that you've purchased in a face-to-face transaction where no phone calls or emails where involved. Heck, by us simply posting on this board, the Gov't knows we have guns.

    If someone lives in a free state and has the opportunity to own NFA items, I can think of no reason not to. Life is short and you only get one go at it. The $200 tax stamp is a pittance in the long run, especially since most NFA purchases (especially Form 1 items) tend to be kept indefinitely.
     
  17. Elkins45

    Elkins45 Member

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    The arm brace won't help me much if I want to SBR my 10/22.
     
  18. TIMC

    TIMC Member

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    I was on the fence until I got one, I am really liking the Sig Brace on my AR pistol. I took it out for the first time Wednesday and really enjoyed shooting the gun more than ever. I am now thinking of doing an AK pistol as well.

    This is my AR pistol.
    8112A528-87B7-475C-BC3F-4CC4AC4B4FE2_zpsq1e5ssya.jpg
     
  19. Theohazard

    Theohazard Member

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    It could. All you need is a 10/22 stock with an AR-style collapsable stock and a "buffer tube" where you can cut off the notches. Once the notches are gone, the arm brace should fit just fine. And since you can no longer attach a stock to it, you don't have to worry about getting busted for constructive possession of an SBR.
     
  20. dogmush

    dogmush Member

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    Yes. I mostly play with AR's.

    I won't SBR another AR when I can just get the tube I want and put a brace on with the right LOP.

    I will still SBR my GSG-5 (eventually). If I had AK's, maybe. My trust is going to end up silencers only unless I find a screaming deal on a machine gun.
     
  21. Blade First

    Blade First Member

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    "No offense to anyone, but many of us find the brace to be hideous. On an AR pistol, perhaps not as bad, but on anything else they look atrocious."

    No offense to you, but most of us find the brace to be an elegant solution. And, since you seem to miss the point entirely, the brace is used on a pistol, looks fine and solves multiple problems inherent in dealing with slow-as-molasses fed brxs.

    On the other hand, you might man-up enough to actually communicate with the vet who designed the brace and, through sheer determination, rec'd a BATFE finding...the results of which are EXPLICITLY outlined in each brace shipped.

    Whatever you and your putative "many" find "hideous", I'd suggest you can't quite adopt a rational conclusion. Emotion? Yes! Logic? No!!!
     
  22. Buzznrose

    Buzznrose Member

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    Hideous? Seriously? Hideous would be Rosie O'Donnell in Daisy Duke shorts! And Elegant? I can't really think of anything that's made of plastic, nylon, and aluminum as elegant. Cool, maybe, but I don't see elegant.

    But y'all are entitled to your opinions...as am I.

    I see it as Practical, Functional, and Economical. For $125 plus $30 for a KAK buffer tube, I avoid the tax stamp, waiting period, and ATF scrutiny. I can take it from Texas to Arizona, up to Montana, and throughout the South without asking Uncle Sugar "Mother, May I?"

    I agree that this law has way outlived its purpose, and that things might change in the future, but I choose to only deal in the reality of today, and that is that this brace is the best option for me as my situation and current laws stand.
     
  23. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    The only functional problem that can't be surmounted easily is it is not as comfortable to shoot as a stock.

    That may be the deciding factor with some and it may not matter to others, but the pity is you have to invest in one to find out if you don't have a buddy with one to try.
     
  24. boricua9mm

    boricua9mm Member

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    Blade First-

    Your personal attacks are comical, but not unheard of here at THR.

    It's hideous, deal with it. If everyone thought it was so elegant and beautiful, there wouldn't be any pending Form 1s on non-AR pistols. Yes, MANY people are SBRing pistols such as Dracos, M92s and Hellpups rather than mounting up a Brace. If you can't see that, then you must not pay much attention to the NFA world, which by the way, is the sub forum we're posting in.

    You're kidding yourself acting like it's some gorgeous solution. If you really thought that you'd have chopped a slot in an M4 stock, run web belts through it and softened it up with reactive chemicals LONG before this ever came out.

    Talking to the designer is irrelevant. If anyone here is actually handicapped and using it as designed, that's one thing, but I'm pretty sure the majority here are not using this brace from a state of disability. They're using them off the shoulder, which is fine and dandy. Better than an SBR? Not in my book nor the volumes of others, as evidenced on NFATracker. The numbers speak for themselves.

    It's a damned accessory. Stop acting like I kicked your dog.
     
  25. Manny

    Manny Member

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    I bought the factory Sig 400 pistol with the arm brace, added a single point sling and weapon light and called it good to go. Very nice, handy weapon that I didn't have to fill out additional forms nor pay additional taxes to own. I like it.
     
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