IMR 4227 in 357 Magnum

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Ccctennis

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I finally ran out of my favorite powder for my 357 mag. H-110

I grabbed some IMR 4227 and headed to the range for some load development.

I started at book minimum 14.0 grains pushing 158 grain lead laser cast.

Group was fairly small.
Switched to 14.4 grains and the group got even tighter. I will show targets once i get my photos later.

Went back to 14.0 and shot another 6. Gun cylinder would barely close and would barely rotate. I took it home and noticed lots of powder kernels under the extractor star. Cleaned it up and all is well.

My question is what causes unburned kernels? Was the charge too light? I was using magnum primers and using my Ruger GP100 Wiley Clapp.
 
Welcome to 4227. Even at max loads in 357 mag and 45 colt I had the same issues. Many people do. You will find a person here or there that insists that it burns clean for them. It doesn't for me or anyone else I know.
 
I went back to the press and put together another batch at 14.7 and 15.0 and 15.3

Hopefully I will find a sweet spot in there somewhere. The tough part was the 14.4 i shot really really well. The group was so nice for me :) Im sure others are more accurate but i would take that all day everyday :)
 
Photo

Here is my target
7 yards unsupported two hands.
 

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Welcome to the mixed blessings of IMR4227. Good velocity, exceptional accuracy, but the darn little leftover powder kernels. All you can do is be sure to use a full power load and a magnum primer.

Don
 
Make sure to point it straight up and tap the ejector briskly. Helps prevent the unburned powder from finding its way under the star. I've never managed to get it to burn clean even at max in .41 Magnum however it provides good accuracy and decent velocity.
 
I tried accurate 9 but really didn't like it. I got lots of smoke with #9 and it didn't really give me solid groups. I need to find another powder to try with it.
 
4227 is an excellent powder. I've a thread on here with extensive experimentation with the same caliber/bullet combo as you--you might take a look at a few week back...

Bottom line, though, is this--my experience (I use it for 357, 44, 454, and 460 mag) and in all cases it likes higher pressure--max loads and even slightly compressed (within the Lyman data). I've used both standard and magnum primers, but I'm not convinced there is a discernible difference.

At the lower ends like what you've listed, I had the same thing--gun wouldn't close, rotate, etc. My current load is around 16 grains with the 357, which is ever so slightly compressed.

Gook luck. Despite what others might say--it is an excellent powder once you learn its traits.
 
sean1129 said:
4227 is an excellent powder. I've a thread on here with extensive experimentation with the same caliber/bullet combo as you--you might take a look at a few week back...

Bottom line, though, is this--my experience (I use it for 357, 44, 454, and 460 mag) and in all cases it likes higher pressure--max loads and even slightly compressed (within the Lyman data). I've used both standard and magnum primers, but I'm not convinced there is a discernible difference.

At the lower ends like what you've listed, I had the same thing--gun wouldn't close, rotate, etc. My current load is around 16 grains with the 357, which is ever so slightly compressed.

Gook luck. Despite what others might say--it is an excellent powder once you learn its traits.
Click to expand...
What gun are you shooting with the 16 grains? My lyman says 15.5 is max but I know some of my rifles are better slightly over book max. I'll look up the thread!
 
Make sure you use a good firm crimp to keep pressure up. It runs great at near max pressure, but gets dirty at lower charges with weaker crimps.
It gives me the best accuracy over 2400 and 110/296 in all my 357s and 44s and isn't very dirty when run hard.
 
I did a real solid roll crimp on my rounds. I do need to bump the powder charge. I did love the accuracy from this powder. I know I could shot ragged holes if I took my time and really was steady. I love just usng two hand standing like I would shoot out on the ranch. Bench rest would probably help the test be more accurate but I generally start out real world.
 
What gun are you shooting with the 16 grains? My lyman says 15.5 is max but I know some of my rifles are better slightly over book max. I'll look up the thread!
Click to expand...

I just looked at my notes--I'm using the 160 grain cast bullet data in the Lyman (page 359 I think). Anyway, the data for 160 grains shows 17 as max load, compressed, the 150 is showing 16 grains max, and he 155 is at like 15.2 max--go figure!

FWIW--the 16 grains showed absolutely no evidence whatsoever of high pressure. I'm using a Smith 686, by the way.

As the weather warms, I plan to load 50 or so rounds that are the same but for mag/std primer--to see if this really has any differences with 4227.

Best of luck!
 
Ccctennis said:
My question is what causes unburned kernels? Was the charge too light? I was using magnum primers and using my Ruger GP100 Wiley Clapp.
Click to expand...

They're not really unburned powder, as far as I can tell. It's more like ash. If you gathered a bunch of it together you couldn't burn it. Max loads seem to lessen the amount of residue but you will never get rid of it entirely. It is just a characteristic of 4227. The stuff sure is accurate though.

I just worked up loads for my 45 Colt Rugers, a Blackhawk and a Redhawk, with 4227 and Nosler 250gr JHPs today. 4227 is good stuff in a 45 Colt heavy frame Ruger. I prefer other powders for full tilt 357 Magnum but 4227 works well enough and loads are accurate.
 
I worked up loads in a few 44s using H110, 2400 and IMR4227, jacketed and cast.
I know I'm giving up a little velocity using 4227, but the accuracy was much better.
Honestly, I could probably get enough power using Unique for deer hunting with a 44 carbine, but my 4227 loads downright took that doe apart last December.
I'm using up my stock of 2400 and H110 and going back to 4227 for all my "working" loads.
 
I'm intrigued by the accuracy talk. I already shoot my gp100 better than my xd-m competition! And almost as good as my glock g20. I just need to keep my cleaning brush and compressed air in my bag to blow out the ash.
 
Ccctennis, my 4227 loads definitely shoot better than anything i fed through my glock 34 that i tuned up a little bit out of my stOck S&Ws!
pulled off some shots that my buddies still talk about in hushed tones Haha!
 
I'm intrigued by the accuracy talk.
Click to expand...

It's quite true. I shoot from a sandbag rest so I'm rock steady when testing new loads--4227 is a several shot single hole powder when you get the right load--not kidding (15-20 yds, but you see my point).
 
I’ve used 4227 in my 357 loads for a lot of years and never had a problem with unburnt powder out of 4 and 6 inch barrel Smiths. I usually load lighter at 14.1 to 14.4 with 158gr cast SWCers. One possible difference is that I use small rifle primers. Not sure if that makes a difference or not.
 
OP, and Sean1129,
I've followed both threads on IMR4227 loads as I'm starting to load for a Desert Eagle in 357 and it likes hotter end loads.
I'm worried to some extent on the residue issue as I don't know what havoc it will play with the gas system/bolt in that gun.
I loaded some test loads at 15, 15.5 and 15.9 grains under a Berry's 158gr RN plated. All three shot well, cycled the slide fine, but they left behind the residue. Not a lot, but some. I think, of the three loads the 15.5 left less residue than the others.
As to max load for IMR4227, my Lyman 49th has the same 17 grain max for the 160 gr cast bullet.
 
I just tested my first 4227 and 296 .357 loads.

Tested two batches . 125 gn with 4277 with 18.2 grns (book calls for 18-20) and not enough crimp. Unburnt powder for sure. Though the bore was clean i could FEEL the flakes and see them in my hand when I ejected brass. Conclusion, tighten the crimp and up the load.

Second batch was 158 gn, 296. Book says 15-16.7. Load was 16.2 with a real tight crimp.
No powder flakes, much better accuracy and no bullet creep.

Conclusion with 4227, up the load form this one and tighten the crimp. Will improve accuracy too.
 
On top of a slightly compressed or nearly compressed powder charge and a firm crimp, IMR4227 also prefers heavier bullets. I would use the W296/H110 for the 125s and save the 4227 for the 158s.
 
I've followed both threads on IMR4227 loads as I'm starting to load for a Desert Eagle in 357 and it likes hotter end loads.
I'm worried to some extent on the residue issue as I don't know what havoc it will play with the gas system/bolt in that gun.
Click to expand...

Ha--this brings up a completely different issue altogether. I can shake/blow any residue out--no problems. In this case, though, you might shoot for a while before any problem shows up.

Let us know long-term if you choose to use 4227 a lot--even with my cleanest 4227 combos, I still have some residue.

Good luck!
 
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