.410 ga Buckshot vs 12 ga Buckshot?

Generally speaking the shot out of the 410 is moving slower especially out of those revolvers that should be sold on TV right next to the stamped steel ginsu knifes "it chops, it dices, it will even blend your favorite cocktail and fetch your paper and all for 12 payments of 19.99, yes thats right just 19.99.... but wait there's more."

I agree with your general conclusion and have often thought the same. Out of a shotgun, the pellet velocity is the same. There are just less of them. I would prefer a 12 gauge over a 410 pum but wouldn't feel under gunned per se.

No reason not to use it under that criteria, EXCEPT, the 410s tend to weigh a lot less and the actual recoil will be greater. If you hit your intended target, one shot should be all you need.....

Some 3" mag 12 gauge loads looks to be about 100 FPS faster.
With more pellets.
Wonder if anybody runs a 9 pellet load in 3" (crank up the V)?

.410s can be lighter or heavier than the same gun in other gauges. I depends on the shotgun.

Wonder if anybody runs a 9 pellet load in 3" (crank up the V)?

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Why? To beat yourself up even more? AT HD distances, it isn't needed.

The only benefit .410 has over 12 gauge is the ammo is smaller and lighter and has less recoil. Other than that, a .410 shotgun may be a bit lighter than 12 gauge, but it's still going to be the same length and for HD, you might as well have the 12 gauge because there are so many specialty loads for it that can also have low recoil and less pellets.

Not to mention .410 costs more than 12 gauge and is not as effective for hunting applications and is not more effective for defense than 12 gauge.

In the Judges and Governors, the .410 is adequate for HD. In fact, I think for extreme tight quarters, the .410 revolvers are a good choice. True, they're not magnums, but since when has a person always needed a magnum to stop a threat? The things some say about the .410 revolvers make it sound like they're useless hunks of metal and that's not true. Most inside the home situations will be less than 7 yards and .410 out of those revolvers will pattern fine, penetrate well, and put a man down.

No reason not to use it under that criteria, EXCEPT, the 410s tend to weigh a lot less and the actual recoil will be greater.

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We have a 12ga. Mossberg 500 and .410 Mossberg 500. The 12ga sleeps on my side of the bed, and the .410 on my wife's.
Even loaded with 3" magnum .410, her shotgun recoils less than my 12ga with 2.75" shells.

Frankly, I can't imagine why people poo-poo the .410 in a shotgun. In a handgun, sure. But in an 18.5" barrel, it's got roughly the same velocity as a 12ga, and still hits with 350grains worth of lead (yes I know, it counts differently because its not one big slug but that's still a lot of lead no matter how you count it).

I think we have a propensity to enjoy a bit of overkill. If velocity is good, more is better. If weight is good, heavier is better. You get the idea. But ultimately, fast followup shots with a .410 and quick maneuverability with a lighter gun have a lot going for them.
I would stake my life, and the lives of my family members on the efficacy of a .410 loaded with 3" magnum 000 buck shells at in home distances. It's a great tool for that job. It lacks the versatility of the 12ga, but for the niche of HD, i think it's perfectly appropriate even if I don't get as many man points for it!

And now I'm going to go sip a cosmo and stick my pinky up in the air!

Other than that, a .410 shotgun may be a bit lighter than 12 gauge, but it's still going to be the same length and for HD, you might as well have the 12 gauge because there are so many specialty loads for it that can also have low recoil and less pellets.
.......
In the Judges and Governors, the .410 is adequate for HD. In fact, I think for extreme tight quarters, the .410 revolvers are a good choice.

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Are you trying to make the argument that .410 in a long gun, where it is at its best, is a bad HD choice, but that in a handgun, where it gets its worst performance, it is a good HD choice?

I admit I'm scratching my head on this one...

How can five (5) 000 pellets out of a 3" .410 ga be "worthless", but nine (9) 00 or eight (8) 000 pellets out of a 12 ga be an "ultimate" manstopper?

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12 gauge buckshot loads have always been very over rated. Having less of them at less velocity isn't comforting.

19-3Ben said:

Are you trying to make the argument that .410 in a long gun, where it is at its best, is a bad HD choice, but that in a handgun, where it gets its worst performance, it is a good HD choice?

I admit I'm scratching my head on this one...

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.410 is not as good in a long gun because it's the same size as any other gauge shotgun. There's next to no benefit to it in a long gun over a 12 gauge, but in a revolver, you have a much smaller gun.

I'm talking about inside the home engagements. I'd rather have a judge/gov than a long .410 shotgun because at those distances the .410 from the long gun is more likely to fly through a person than the revolver. If we're talking outdoors engagements, the long gun is always the better option.

Everything is relative and in either scenario with either gun, I wouldn't want to be shot by 4 or 5 pellets of 000 buck.

5 00 buck can work out a 410. However, 8 or 9 from a 12 ga at SD ranges will make 3 or 4 more wound channels.

When I was still handloading, I had one BPI Manual that had some 1 and 2 pellet 00 buck loads for the .410 pushing 2200 to 2400 f/s at the muzzle. I never got a chance to play around with those. I wonder what the wound channel would be like.

I prefer lighter buck with 20-40 pellets. You can't do that as easily with the long slender 410.

410 00 is not something I would want to catch, though.

.455_Hunter said:

I know many people poo-poo the .410 for defensive use, but ponder the following...

How can five (5) 000 pellets out of a 3" .410 ga be "worthless", but nine (9) 00 or eight (8) 000 pellets out of a 12 ga be an "ultimate" manstopper?

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That's 60%-80% MORE holes.

That's a big difference.

19-3Ben said:

We have a 12ga. Mossberg 500 and .410 Mossberg 500. The 12ga sleeps on my side of the bed, and the .410 on my wife's. Even loaded with 3" magnum .410, her shotgun recoils less than my 12ga with 2.75" shells.

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Have you ever patterned that 410 with buckshot? I would think the 410 would be superior (if you want a tight pattern) since the pellets are stacked in line in 00 and 000.

Also wondering if a PGO is a viable option in a 410. I wouldn't want to hold a 12ga PGO near my face, but that just may work with a 410. That would make it more compact than the 12.

I'd like to see a 410 shell loaded with BB hevishot. In that diameter, you can get 3 balls per layer, so you could have a decent pellet count if you're looking for 24 to 32 pellets. Penetration may be marginal, but its better than bird shot.

19-3Ben said:

We have a 12ga. Mossberg 500 and .410 Mossberg 500. The 12ga sleeps on my side of the bed, and the .410 on my wife's.
Even loaded with 3" magnum .410, her shotgun recoils less than my 12ga with 2.75" shells.

Frankly, I can't imagine why people poo-poo the .410 in a shotgun. In a handgun, sure. But in an 18.5" barrel, it's got roughly the same velocity as a 12ga, and still hits with 350grains worth of lead (yes I know, it counts differently because its not one big slug but that's still a lot of lead no matter how you count it).

I think we have a propensity to enjoy a bit of overkill. If velocity is good, more is better. If weight is good, heavier is better. You get the idea. But ultimately, fast followup shots with a .410 and quick maneuverability with a lighter gun have a lot going for them.
I would stake my life, and the lives of my family members on the efficacy of a .410 loaded with 3" magnum 000 buck shells at in home distances. It's a great tool for that job. It lacks the versatility of the 12ga, but for the niche of HD, i think it's perfectly appropriate even if I don't get as many man points for it!

And now I'm going to go sip a cosmo and stick my pinky up in the air!

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If the 410 shotgun (it was a Mossberg 500) I had seen at Dicks Sporting goods hadn't been scratched up, I would have bought it. I had taken my 12 gauge Mossberg 590 though Loui Awebuck's class and I wanted to retake this class with that 410 just to see how it did. Mostly wanted it so that when my daughter was a wee bit older it would be a good initial training pump to shoot tin cans. Of course, this assumed recoil was dimished from my 12 gauge. The 410 was smaller and lighter so recoil may not be as reduced as I would have hoped. It did look like a cute little shotgun.

Optimized for spittin' distances proly means screwed when the D stretches.
Niche marketing of silly stuff has folks thinking 25 ft and not 25 yards.
I do not live in a big house, but it's proly 25 yards from one end to the other.......and should the fight go outside, I want to win it.

I used to work at a gunshop...........so assume those coming after know I'm armed.

My ol lady's job has us getting arson, murder and rape threats from mentally ill and thug types.

They do home invasions (multiple attackers, armed).

I'm not sitting in a room waiting for them to get super close. I'd just as soon mow them all down in the yard.

It aint about fair. It's about winning. Part of that is not underestimating your opponent(s).

Recoil doesn't bother me. I'm not out of shape or fat or disabled. My frame keeps thumpers anchored well and I can rock them pretty darn fast.

I do think folks with more fat/muscle to offer an intermediate sliding surface and get more chewed up in shooting big stuff.

But in hunting or probably HD you aint even gonna feel it. The gun just annoyingly moves a bit in recoil. Sight picture change gets you honked off.
Seems slow to get it back.

IMHO a threat is a threat until it's dead.
Overkill is a silly term.
But if have to go with it...........rather have overkill than underkill.
Not everything gives up the ghost in expedient fashion.
Whatever it takes to accelerate their demise, use it.
Too much in some situations might be just right in others.
Limiting things up front...........ballistic wise...........seems rather silly to me.
But if certain ballistic gains take things to unmanageable in deployment, yeah, do what you gotta do.
IMHO most men in our culture have been turned into wimps.
Recoil recoil recoil..............how many posts do we see on this crap when folks haven't even bought the thing? Or Haven't shot similar?
Guy at work a religious nut, got two AR's for when the SHTF...........asked me repeatably about "recoil". 250 lb dude..............rifles in 5.56.
I told him his freakin 10 yr old daughter could shoot it no problem.
It's been 2 yrs since he bought them............still hasn't even shot them to zero.

But by golly he wears a Gadsden shirt and NRA cap.

Medical condition, injured or infirmed..........these conditions might draw a very hard line where recoil is tolerable or not.

For any abled bodied man..........quit being a wuss.

If you're already shooting 2 3/4" magnums you should be able to handle 3".

Sheepdog1968 said:

If the 410 shotgun (it was a Mossberg 500) I had seen at Dicks Sporting goods hadn't been scratched up, I would have bought it. I had taken my 12 gauge Mossberg 590 though Loui Awebuck's class and I wanted to retake this class with that 410 just to see how it did. Mostly wanted it so that when my daughter was a wee bit older it would be a good initial training pump to shoot tin cans. Of course, this assumed recoil was dimished from my 12 gauge. The 410 was smaller and lighter so recoil may not be as reduced as I would have hoped. It did look like a cute little shotgun.

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A Mossberg 500 in 410 will kick noticeably less than a 12 ga:

The 12 ga weighs 7.5 lbs while the 410 is 6.25lb. That is a 17% reduction in weight.

The 410 Winchester Super-X buckshot load (3 in / 000 buck) has a muzzle energy of 1357 Joules. The average of the 12 ga Super-X buckshot loads (2 3/4 in shells) I found is 2891 Joules. That is a 53% reduction in muzzle energy.

So in round numbers 80% of the weight X 50% the energy = a noticeable reduction in recoil.

How can five (5) 000 pellets out of a 3" .410 ga be "worthless", but nine (9) 00 or eight (8) 000 pellets out of a 12 ga be an "ultimate" manstopper?

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People have all sorts of preconceptions. 5 hits with buckshot will do in a bad guy. There are plenty of advantages in using a 12 ga but if the .410 is what you have then a buckshot load or slug would be the proper choice. No reason to consider it inadequate or worthless.

I have shot a lot of .410 000 buck. The stuff hits hard and patterns tight at in-the-house distances. They're just 85 grain .36 caliber balls, but five in a two inch pattern is NASTY. In a real shotgun (not a revolver) they should do the job.

gp911 said:

I have shot a lot of .410 000 buck. The stuff hits hard and patterns tight at in-the-house distances. They're just 85 grain .36 caliber balls, but five in a two inch pattern is NASTY. In a real shotgun (not a revolver) they should do the job.

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Yes 410 buck will do the job. Whether that 000 ball comes out of a 410 or 12 gauge if it is going the same speed it will do the same damage. A 000 ball at 1135 fps has a muzzle energy of 270 joules. That is the same as a typical round of .380 ACP. So with every shotshell of 410 buck you are sending downrange the equivalent of almost a full magazine from a Ruger LCP.