9mm at 9x23 pressures?

Other than chamber pressure!

Doesn't sound wise!

Look, I'm not a handloader, but as I understand it, the primary function of the cartridge case is to act as a gasket in order to seal the breech of a breech-loading firearm. The thing that really has to stand up to the pressure of the fired cartridge is the firing chamber, as Duvel points out. Sure, the brass has to hold up, but if the firing chamber bursts, the brass hasn't got a chance, even with a load well below maximum.

It's like what I read once about hot-rodding engines - the problem isn't getting the engine to produce more power, it's getting the engine to hold together under the increased output.

So hardly anyone is going to want to fool with what the OP describes, because if you load it the wrong gun, it's good-bye gun, and maybe some fingers too.

Yes, I know that this is exactly what the people who developed 357 Magnum and 44 Magnum did - but they did so in the process of inventing 357 Magnum and 44 Magnum. 9x23 Winchester already exists, so what's the point? If you want to shoot 9x23 loads, it would be a lot safer to get a 9x23 gun, IMO.

You might also want to read up on something called "Super Face", which was a thing that happened before 9x23, when people were hot-rodding 38 Super for competition shooting.

Finally - and as I said, I'm not a handloader - isn't 9x19 what is called "case limited"? That is, it hasn't got the case capacity to be loaded a whole lot hotter? If that's true, wouldn't shortening 9x23 brass to 9x19 be a step backward? If 9x23 brass is thicker to withstand greater pressure, wouldn't it actually have less capacity than standard 9x19 brass once you shortened it?

I believe what you suggest is possible. I've done a bit of experimenting and chronographing of high performance 9MM cartridges, 38 Super,9X23 Winchester, 9X19MM +p,+p+ and equivalent hand loads. The 9X23 Win. case head is very strong, but this heavily constructed case head reduces capacity compared with the similar 38 Super cartridge. Cutting a 9X23 to 9X19 length would make for a very heavily constructed little cartridge with even less case capacity than standard 9MM. I did something similar in cutting .223 rifle cases to .900" in order to experiment with high pressure loading in a 38 Super pistol. Jeff Cooper's "Super 9". I got to 1625 FPS,~674 ft/lb of energy with a 115 grain bullets before deciding this was enough of a good thing. Anyway, interesting but having experimented some, I am quite content with the performance of regular old 9X19MM, especially in the +P and +P+ versions.......ymmv

How was the recoil on those toasty Supers? Sounds like one of those lightweight barn-burner 357's!

I have loaded 9x19 using 9x21 data loaded to the latters COL for a TC encore.

From a 16" barrel you're looking at 147g xtp hollow points north of 1450fps from a 16" bbl.

There's no way I would shoot these in a auto loading firearm.

Why do that? Just buy a pistol that uses 9X23 ammo. If you hot rod loads there could be a real problem and perhaps the loss of body parts.

I'm not trying to be crass, I'm just curious how you know 55K will be safe in a 9mm platform.

As I'm working towards max (and past) book with the 10 I've come to the conclusion that I really don't have a good indicator of when to stop, other than testing the effectiveness of Spectra gloves.

In my opinion primer condition means next to nothing, and PRE is almost as useless in a tight AM barrel.

So, a PTII platform it is.

note: I have no illusion the PT is definitive, only that it offers something.

Well, if you decide to pursue this it'll be interesting to watch.

And not in a train wreck type of way

Try Hirtenberger L7A1 9mm ammo made for the British. I chronoed some myself.

L7A1 ammo, head stamp ’91. Red primer seal. Nato + inside circle mark.

The temp. was at least 87 degrees. Humidity was near 90 percent.

No wind to speak of.

Distance from my chrono was 10 ft.

I first fired 5 rounds of PMC .22 lr from my Ruger .22 rifle as a check. Average of 1175 fps, which is right on the money for my 16 inch bbl. 22. rifle.

I then fired five rounds of L7A1 ammo from my Glock 17 with a Bar-Sto barrel. The barrel has conventional rifling and thus expect about 5 percent less velocity than with the polygon Glock barrel.

The five rounds came out at:

1356 fps
1329 fps
1352 fps
1349 fps
1347 fps.

For an average of 1346.6 fps. Expect 1400 from a Glock with polygon rifling (and that is just what I've read by others who chronoed from their Glocks.)

Now NATO 124gr FMJ can be expected to make 1250 at the most from a Glock 17, even with the polygon barrel. So the average of 1346 is at least 100 fps higher than Nato (and that ain't hay.)

I have the five empties. Primers show no pressure signs. The case head stamping is quite clear and the cases are totally and absolutely reloadable.

The cases landed 8 to 9 feet from the gun. It did kick a bit more and at the mouth of each case is a small dent so the slide velocities are higher for sure.

Deaf

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this but have you looked into the "9mm Major" stuff the USPSA guys are doing?

There's already years of research and testing (and the occasional blown up gun, but ... well, that happens) into this idea. And they use standard 9mm brass.

Google "9mm Major" and you'll get plenty of results.

The L7A1 was made for the Sterling SMG. Unsafe for any 9mm platform? Open bolt submachineguns can handle nearly any 9mm load you can cook up. I've seen a swedish K SMG eat double and triple charges before like it was normal rounds without effort or damage. I talked with a collector who converted a class III PPSh41 to 9x23 WIN with just a barrel change and it eliminated all stoppages and ran like a sewing machine at 1200rpm. He said himself if it don't toss the brass at least 3 feet up it's not powerful enough to cycle to blowback action reliably 100%.

What sam1911 said.

But hang around guys shooting 9mm major long enough, and you will see a blown-up gun. Have seen a couple myself.

Note, the Hi Point handgun and carbine are rated +P in 9mm Luger / 9X19

and Buffalo Bore offers 9mm Luger +P and +P+ rounds, you might want to inquire as to their cases used for those.

I've shot quite a few 9mm rounds loaded to 60k psi and here is what I can tell you.

If you have a good gun/barrel it will hold up for but without a comp to slow down the unlocking/slide speed the gun will beat itself to death.

If you have a weak design like the unsupported glock barrels you'd be lucky if it last one round before it grenades in your hand.

So just make sure you know what your doing and go slow. The CZ 75 is a rock solid platform but you'll still need a compensator if you plan on running a lot of major ammo.

Open bolt submachineguns can handle nearly any 9mm load you can cook up.

Click to expand...

Not quite, nor all of them.

This was the top half of my SWD M11/9mm "MAC" after less than 2000 rounds of Spanish SMG 9mm......




Same gun with the new upper, which ran fine for another 25+ years, and probably hundreds of thousands of rounds of commercial, NATO, and some other SMG only ammo.



Never shot any of that Spanish stuff out of any handguns, especially after seeing what it did to the MAC. It was fun shooting it though, as the cyclic rate jumped considerably.

I have shot a good bit of SMG, or at least sold as surplus SMG rated ammo back in the 80's and 90's, and never really had any issues with it, but it was mostly shot in SMG's. Had some nasty surplus Egyptian SMG 9mm. While it was "warm", it was more corrosive than any other corrosive ammo Ive ever seen or shot.

Ive shot a good bit of commercial +P+ 9mm out of Glocks, and never had a problem, but from what Ive seen of the spec sheets for those loads, they werent anything over 42,000 psi.