9x23 Conversion: Which Pistol to Start With?

[sinjin_70]

I think this would work fine; or you could just buy it chambered for 9x23 from the get-go.

Also, I would simply note that 9x19 is a lot more economical and practical to shoot, and in a gun that can accept longer-OAL 9x19 cartridges, you can load "9mm Major" which is simply a 9mm loaded to a long length (typically 1.20"+) and higher load levels than regular 9x19 (whose realistic max OAL is about 1.145").

If it were me with your plan (buy a 9mm STI first), I would save the original 9mm barrel and get a new one for 9x23. This way I could shoot either cartridge with just a quick barrel change.


Don't be. The SV/STI magazines should feed 9mm cartridges (9mm, 9SC, 38SC, 38S, 9x23) from regular factory 9x19 lengths all the way up to 1.23" or possibly longer. In my experience, they actually work better with cartridges loaded longer vs. shorter; however, my 9mm SV feeds factory-length 9x19 just fine.

Many, many people use SR primers for USPSA matches in .40 and the .355" Major cartridges, and it works just fine. I use Win-SR in my .40 Limited gun and it works great.

Just to be sure I understand you, you're saying that the 9x19 magazines, that come with the 9x19 caliber version, will fit and feed all of those longer 9mm variants?

 

[Zak Smith]

As far as I know, SV and STI have ".38 caliber" magazines (magazine bodies) which will work with just about anything approx the size of 9x19, .38 Super, 9x23, etc.

The mag bodies I use for 9x19 are these .38 caliber STI mags.

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=24751/Product/MAGAZINES__MAGAZINE_BODIES___COMPONENTS

-z

 

[sinjin_70]

Don't forget you need to put your 9x23 on a gun with a frame sized for .38 Super, 10MM, or .45 ACP or similar length cartridge.

Current Tanfoglio pistols all use a lager frame that will accommodate the longer cartridge.

However, CZ 75's and older 9MM Tanfoglio's (I don't know when they made the change) use a smaller frame designed for 9MM/.40 S&W length cartridges, that will not accommodate the longer 9x23 round. If you want a CZ for your project, you would need a CZ97.

You cannot put 9x23 in a 9x19 magazine, though you can use .38 Super magazines for 9x23.

JTQ,

My understanding is that Tanfoglio manufactures the Witness with two different frames, with one having a smaller mag well than the other. For Europe, they almost always build 9x19 variants with the smaller mag well, and associated mag, to make it feed more reliably, but they can and will manufacture 9x19 guns with the larger magwell and mag, which is what EAA imports. My expectation is that the 9mm magazine that fits the larger mag well will probably fit and feed longer 9mm cartridges just fine, but I'll verify that with EAA.

I can't find any multi-caliber guns on CZ-USA. The '75, and siblings, shoots 9x19 and the '97 shoots 45. Period. I have no interest in attempting to make a 45 caliber gun shoot 9mm. I have a friend who has an SP-01, so I'll ask him for the largest OAL his mags will take, but I'm not expecting the answer I'd like.

 

[JTQ]

My expectation is that the 9mm magazine that fits the larger mag well will probably fit and feed longer 9mm cartridges just fine, but I'll verify that with EAA.

I would think that is not the case. Even with the larger frame guns EAA imports, I believe the mags for 9MM are different from the .38 Super Mags. I think you could buy .38 Super mags for the EAA Witness and they would work with the 9x23, but I'm pretty sure the 9MM version is a different mag with at least some kind of spacer that holds that shorter round in place.

You are correct about the CZ75 only being able to shoot the shorter rounds such as 9MM or .40S&W. The length of the 9x23 is significant enough to where they won't fit in those 9MM pistols.

I believe Zak Smith's info on the 9MM for the STI is the "out layer" in the "use 9x23 in a 9x19 mag" world. The STI 2011 mags must be generic enough to handle both rounds as I'm sure Zak Smith is giving you good information.

However, check any mag manufacturer that makes 9x19 mags (Wilson, Tripp, Springfield, or Brownells/Midway catalogs) for a 1911 style pistol (a pistol that has a magwell large enough for the 9x23) and you will see they use some kind of magazine modification to accommodate the shorter 9x19 round. You cannot put .38 Super or 9x23 rounds in those magazines. However, .38 Super mags don't have the same modification since they are basically the same length as the .45 ACP as is the 9x23.

 

[Zak Smith]

Zak Smith's info on the 9MM for the STI is the "out layer"[sic] in the "use 9x23 in a 9x19 mag" world. The STI 2011 mags must be generic enough to handle both rounds as I'm sure Zak Smith is giving you good information.

As far as I can tell, the only difference between STI .40/10mm mag bodies and .38 caliber (9mm, .38 super, etc) mag bodies is a slight difference in the width of the feed lips.

One other note: it's been my experience that some fraction of the SV/STI mags you buy need some sort of adjustment or tuning before they work 100%.

 

[BullfrogKen]

I talk a little about the conversion I did on a Lightweight Commander here.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=234282

I would NOT recommend starting the project the way I did. I began with a .45 LW Commander because I found one unaltered for less than $600.00. I couldn't touch a stock LW Commander in 9mm or 38 Super for less than $1,000.


I use Metalform 38 Super mags for everything in this gun. 9x23, 38 Super, 9mm. They all run. I do have some of the different variations of mags using the spacers, both back spacers and the front "crease" mags. I don't see a difference in performance at all between those 9mm dedicated mags and the 38 Super length mags.


I'd go with a 1911 unless you have ogre-sized hands. Double column guns for these long cartridges are not for those with small hands. And the single column guns carry much better because they're slimmer. If it's a range gun, or a fun gun, that might not be a concern.

If you do go with a double column gun, go the STI route. I'm not convinced the Para frames have the quality I demand when investing that sort of money into a gun.


Keep the original 9mm barrel. One of the big bonuses of a 9x23 conversion is the ease of dropping the 9mm barrel in for practice. If you ream your 9mm chamber out, you'll have to have another barrel fit. Why pay for work twice? Buy it once.

When Jim Garthwaite builds 9x23 guns he often buys a 9mm barrel and reams it out, fits it, and then it's good to go.


Some folks find they can use their 38 Super barrel for 9x23 with no problem. The extractor is rarely an issue, unless its a piece of crap or some proprietary sort of extractor.


The simplest, and cheapest way to do it is on a standard 1911 platform, or go STI.

Use anything else, and you'll be plagued with problems finding replacement parts. Parts break, spring going sproing, and you'll want another magazine or two someday.


Don't try to reinvent the wheel. Don't overthink it. The STI platforms, and those who use the 1911 platform to build 9x23 projects, have all the bugaboos worked out already. Unless you have deep pockets, or are a relative of a gunsmith the caliber of Jim Garthwaite or Dane Burns, go with the industry standard. You'll enjoy the gun a lot more over its lifetime.

 

[Zak Smith]

I have pretty stubby fingers, a Glock 20/21 is pretty big in my hands. The SV/STI 2011's feel just about like a Glock 19 in terms of grip size for me.

 

[BullfrogKen]

My hands aren't tiny, but they're no where near the size of Jim's.


I've shot STI's in 9x21 and 10mm. I could make them work, but even before the disease weakened my hands and I was still young and fit, I couldn't shoot a wide body with nearly as much control and as quickly as I could a single column.


Everyone's hands, grip strength, shooting styles and posture is different. Before making a sight-unseen investment in a wide body, I'd make a pretty concerted effort to fondle and shoot one first.

 

[sinjin_70]

Well, I shoot an XDm 9 in production USPSA, which has a 19 round double stack magazine, and have no problems. Granted, it's plastic, but the marketese on the STI website makes a big deal about the fact that the 2011 uses a plastic mag well to allow it to keep the grip size close to that of a single stack 1911. Any truth to that, Zak?

I can't rule out the Tanfoglio just yet, for the following reasons:

- Its designed to allow caliber changes, so magazines, slides and springs for almost any popular caliber are available, including 38 Super.

- The aftermarket for parts and accessories may not be as large as that for 1911's, but it's OK

- There are reports of people already shooting 9x23 in this gun, using the 38 Super barrel, with great results.

- I can buy a brand new one for $500 + tax and transfer.

You guys have advocated the 1911 well, and I'm pretty sure I'll eventually own one, but on this project, my desire for a hi-cap mag has narrowed my choices to 1911's that are 2 to 4 times the price of the Tanfoglio which, while it's not in the same league as an STI, does have a following. By appearance and reputation, the STI is, by far, the nicest and best suited gun of all I've considered, but, for me, plunking down 2 kilobucks on a for-fun project pistol requires some real soul searching. LOL I think I'm gonna need someone to convince me that the Tanfolgio is a truly flawed design before I can remove it from consideration.

 

[Mastiff]

I'll have to disagree with your assertion that

The simplest, and cheapest way to do it is on a standard 1911 platform, or go STI.

I did it with a $219 Tok and $50 additional spare parts. You couldn't do it that cheap with any 1911 platform I know of. It just took replacing the existing barrel and bushing with a 9mm barrel and bushing, and reaming out the chamber slightly with 2 drill bits. It is really hard figure out how to do it any simpler.

 

[Zak Smith]

Yes, I believe if you measure the width of a 2011 grip
it will be very close to a normal grip on a 1911.

 

[sinjin_70]

Any Para-Ordnance aficionado's out there? I tried to find out from Para whether the 9mm mags that come in the P18.9 are large enough for 9x23. Not feeling the love. Anyone here know?

Regards

 

[JShirley]

.38 Super mags work.

 

[MattTheHat]

I ran across a schmokin' deal on a .38 Super Commander top end a couple of months ago. With a .38/9mm slide stop and a Colt .38 Super magazine, if functions absolutely *flawlessly* on my Combat Commander .45 frame. Very pleasant to shoot, too.

Looks like I might be experimenting with some 9x23. Now, where are my spent .223 cases?

-Matt

 

[Oyeboten]

So...a TT-33 Tokarev can be converted to 9x23 Winchester ( or, to .38 Super, or, .38 ACP, 9mm Largo etc ) ?


Seems like kind of a light Pistol for so powerful a Cartridge as the 9x23 Win...

How do the 9x23 Cartridges behave in the Magazine?

 

[Oyeboten]

Bump...

Seems like too good a topic to let dissapear into the memory hole...

 

[Mastiff]

The Tok works fine in 9x23 Winchester. The recoil is much less than firing 357 Mag in my S&W 686, IMHO.
The cartridges are slightly smaller in OAL than the original 7.62x25, they work perfectly in the original magazine. The OAL of the Tok round is 1.35, the OAL of the 9x23 Winchester is roughly 1.245.

 

[Oyeboten]

Thanks Mastiff,


Good to know, and mighty interesting also.

I might just do something with that.

What about the CZ-52?

Is it as easily converted, to either 9mm, or, .38 Super?

 

[Mastiff]

There are 9mm barrels out there for the CZ-52, and it is a lower pressure round than the 7.62X25 Tok round. I would definitely NOT convert a CZ-52 to the 9x23 Winchester. The barrel is extremely thin where they milled it out for the rollers. It is perfectly fine at the pressures the Tok round puts out. I would not want to take a chance with the higher pressured 9x23 Winchester in the CZ-52.

From a post by Clark on here back in 2003:

The CZ52 blows up at less than the 65kspi that it takes to make the primer fall out of a rimless brass case. No other pistol I am aware of that takes rimless cases is that weak.

I need to do no more CZ52 tests to convince myself.
The CZ52 is the weakest semi auto pistol I have tested.

The 25 acp pistols I have tested are stronger.
The 32 acp pistols I have tested are stronger.
The 380 pistols I have tested are stronger.
The 9x19mm pistols I have tested are stronger.
The 9x23mm pistols I have tested are stronger.
The 40 S&W pistols I have tested are stronger.
The one 10 mm pistol I have tested is stronger.
The 45 acp pistols I have tested are stronger.
The other 7.62x25mm pistols [Tokarevs] are stronger.


The CZ52 is a weak pistol, and I have proved with calculations and tests. and posted it:
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showt...threadid=80232
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showt...threadid=67826
http://www.gunboards.com/forums/Ultr...42&SID=1140910
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q...coring=d&hl=en
http://talk.shooters.com/room_47/7653.cfm
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wa-ccw/message/26767
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...highlight=CZ52
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...highlight=CZ52
http://www.reloadbench.com/ubb/Forum.../000494-2.html
http://www.loadyourown.com/ubb/Forum10/HTML/000106.html
http://pub125.ezboard.com/fcollector...icID=111.topic
http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/showth...hreadid=118237

It is not rocket science.
No other pistol is as thin in the chamber wall as the CZ52 is on the bottom where material is milled out to make room for the rollers.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=22071

 

[Oyeboten]

Wow...thanks very much for that info!


Been thinking about the Tokarev Model for quite a while...prolly should have got one when they were flooding awhile back...but, wanted to learn more about possibilities.

There are many versions and provenances with these of course...also.

 

[Mastiff]

My favorite is the Yugo Model 57. The imports have a safety that mimics the 1911, it holds one more round in the magazine, and has a captured recoil spring. It has become my carry pistol, when I am in jurisdictions where my CCW is valid. I've bought 4 of them since I like them so much.
CZ-52 magazines are easily converted for this pistol.