1911 Hammers - Unsafe as Sold

Cylinder & Slide used to have a MARSOC hammer with extra hook height.

Brownells shows the hook height at 0.023" but they are out of stock.

It's worked great for a long time as is....

I must disagree Those .020" hooks are not unsafe. Longer hooks can be terribly unsafe if not done right. A full understanding of 1911 hammers and sears will reveal that. Many things go into a proper 1911 trigger job. Suggest getting a copy of the blueprints and studying them first. http://brlcad.org/design/drafting/M1911-A1_REDUX.pdf That will reveal some of what needs to be understood. Engagement itself is a very misunderstood aspect of the 1911 hammer/sear.

A safe trigger pull is a product of correct geometry, enough engagement, correct sear spring tension on each leg, and a properly fit safety.

I know I am in the minority, but where can you get a 1911 hammer with a reasonable hook depth?

Click to expand...

You may have a minority opinion, but you aren't alone...

Some who cut down hammer hook depth or use hammers that come with reduced depth, don't understand the relationship between hook depth and safety lock (manual safety) fit. With reduced hook depth it is absolutely imperative that the lug on the safety prevents any movement of the sear when it's engaged. Browning designed the piece to be a service pistol, not a target toy.

A safe trigger pull is a product of correct geometry, enough engagement, correct sear spring tension on each leg, and a properly fit safety.

Click to expand...

Absolutely! And without question. But this isn't always what comes out when some folks get done. Also a vast majority don't know how to check manual safety's for correct function.

Now I'll wait and see if anyone asks.

We will just have to disagree on the "tiny hammer hook" being unsafe. Many think that the hammer and sear are in full contact across the faces, but they're not. The hammer hooks, due to the way they are machined with a negative angle and due to their position relative to the center of rotation, land tip first on the face of the sear. So the "engagement" ends up being about .001" wide. And that's on an unmodified hammer and sear. Even when the angle is opened to 90 degrees the hooks still land tip first on the sear face. The width of the sear nose and its breakaway angle, if it has one, dictates the distance that the trigger moves the sear to release. Of course a longer hammer hook will certainly impact that, but quality stock parts can be tuned without shortening the hooks. Just don't bring me Rock Island or Para Ordnance parts to work with! Junk!

You are describing a roll trigger. Actually some bullseye shooters like that kind of trigger, too. Not as rare as you might think. One source of those components is KC Kustom. You'll have to ask him what hook depth he uses.

http://www.kcskustomcreations.com/roll-trigger-kit.html


You might also contact Chuck Warner at:
ELITE WARRIOR ARMAMENT LLC
505-896-9338
http://www.elitewarriorarmament.com/

Chuck is very well versed in this and would probably be able to provide you with exactly what you want.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Actually I just stopped to call him and spent 30 minutes talking over old times and sweet guns. He has some long hook hammers (.030"), but they're all spur type so you'll have to bob it if you have a beavertail. Give him a call.

Thumbs up BBBBill. Once again you speak truth. Length of trigger movement after take up with .030" hooks can be as short as a hammer with .020" hooks if fitted to that end. And a hammer/sear fitted to "target" specs can be tuned to have a 10lb pull if desired. Safe is safe and unsafe is dangerous...
Joe

+1 I have fitted lots of new hammers and I never saw one that had less than .025" hooks - usually more. But you can do very safe triggers with .018" hooks and they'll hold perfectly. It's all in the angle of the sear on the hammer hooks and how much breakaway you stone on the sear and how you tweak the sear spring. Tuning that sear spring is an artform - like tuning an old Telecaster.

Don't forget that the sear angle has a lot to do with engagement. If the sharp point of the hammer is digging into the sear, the sear is not properly shaped.

But there is a lot of nonsense written about sear engagement and trigger pull. When I once let slip that my 1911 carry gun had a 7 pound pull, I was haughtily informed by a self-described expert that he would never own a 1911 with more than a two ounce pull. I guess some of the hammer makers are after that market.

Jim

Roll Trigger for 1911

http://www.bullseyeforum.net/t2709-roll-trigger-kits?highlight=1911+trigger Have not tried one. Years ago, read about a Russian design "pull through" trigger. The hammer notch was very deep, so that the sear had a lot of engaugement. The angles had to be set correctly so the weight stayed the same thru the whole length of trigger travel. Had a Ruger 10" SBH at the time to play with. It makes for a great trigger. There is no weight stacking like with normal trigger pulls. Its just one light movement of the trigger , till the shot breaks. Its safe and you cant tell when the shot will break. Not for surface hardened hammer and sear parts on some brands .

243winxb, that's the parts that I mentioned above. Really good stuff!

JimK, I am certain that your "self described expert" actually meant to say "two pound pull" instead of two "ounces".

Todays better steels and machining

A S7 tool steel sear machined by EDM or new high quality hammer is far harder and wear resistant then older parts.

Hi, Drail,

I doubt that particular "expert" had any idea what he meant. Just one of the folks who favor us with their vast (or half-vast) knowledge from time to time.

It is a bit surprising that even among gun folks, trigger pull weight is often a mystery. I have had several people try an S&W that has a 2 3/4 pound single action pull (about standard for an S&W revolver) and call it "hair trigger". When I asked what weight they though it was, guesses were from an ounce to a pound; none went over that.

Jim

Very interesting. I have reached the point where as long as the trigger breaks very cleanly at less than 5 lbs. I can make it work as well as the "hair triggers" on my tuned guns. "Crisp" is what I want.

Old Fuff said:

You may have a minority opinion, but you aren't alone...

Some who cut down hammer hook depth or use hammers that come with reduced depth, don't understand the relationship between hook depth and safety lock (manual safety) fit. With reduced hook depth it is absolutely imperative that the lug on the safety prevents any movement of the sear when it's engaged. Browning designed the piece to be a service pistol, not a target toy.



Absolutely! And without question. But this isn't always what comes out when some folks get done. Also a vast majority don't know how to check manual safety's for correct function.

Now I'll wait and see if anyone asks.

Click to expand...

OK, I'll not leave you hanging.

How does one check their manual safety for correct function?

Elkins45 said:

OK, I'll not leave you hanging.

How does one check their manual safety for correct function?

Click to expand...

Thumb safety check -

1. Cock the hammer.

2. Engage the thumb safety.

3. Grip the gun, depressing the grip safety, and squeeze the trigger.
3a. Old method -
Hold the gun up to your ear, listening carefully, release the trigger, then pull the hammer spur back. If you hear a "tink" , "tick", or "click" the sear is reseating in the hammer, indicating that the safety is allowing sear movement with the hammer engaged.
3b. New method - While squeezing the trigger, look down into the gun in front of the hammer. If you see the sear nose move forward and/or the hammer cam back any amount then the safety is not blocking the sear from moving.

Note - The new method is deemed to be a more reliable method as the sound may be inaudible to some (like me) whose hearing had been compromised. Seeing the movement is certainly a more positive way to ensure that you know what is happening. Unmodified GI guns will have larger/deeper engagement depth on the hammer hooks compared to newer guns. You will often find "scant" safety fit on those guns. Undesirable, but not necessarily indicative of an unsafe gun. The relatively larger hammer to sear overlap will accommodate some degree of sear movement with no risk of the hammer dropping when the safety is disengaged. Factors contributing to that are - no escape angle on the sear, longer sear movement required to get out from under the hammer hooks, and the geometry of the hammer hook relative to the sear nose creating a camming action.
It is a fact that tuning the hammer sear for a crisp light pull does require an in depth understanding of the geometry of the parts and the way they relate when installed in the frame, the criticality of precision fit done right, and absolutely zero movement of the sear when test the safety. If any of those factors are missed you will have an unsafe trigger. Done right it is absolutely safe. No in between.

I recall an old gunzine article in which M. Ayoob describes that as the "YARF Test."
"Yank And Retain Function."

BBBBill has posted an excellent explanation on how to check the Safety Lock (Manual Safety). I will add one point. Those who tune trigger pulls often add what is called a back angle on the sear, that decreases the depth of engagement between the Hammer Hooks/Full Cock Notch and Sear.

This must be taken into consideration on any 1911 platform pistol that is carried in Condition One (Cocked & Locked) because alterations to the hammer and sear that are fully acceptable on a target pistol may compromise the "locked" part of the equation on a weapon. When you make additional changes to the sear that reduce engagement the reason for absolutely zero movement of the sear when the safety is engaged should be obvious. The hammer hook's depth and sear angles specified in U.S. blueprints for the 1911A1 pistol reflect what's required for a weapon. When you look at the procedures used to make the pistol into a National Match target pistol the specifications and requirements change.

Professional gunsmith that are experienced in working on 1911 trigger systems know and understand all this. All too many pistol users don't.