Thoughts on defensive rounds for 308

Less than 12" and you think that TAP garbage is a viable defense round. The FBI standard for HANDGUNS is 12" and we are talking a rifle round with less. If you have to fire a shot through an arm or it hits anything solid you may have a bad day because they might not go down. Especially considering that most suspects who perform night time burglaries are usually armed. Good thing night time burgs are very rare so you probably won't have to find out if it will work or not.

I've seen guys survive some pretty serious wounds and even be able to fight or run after being shot. Less than 12" may not be enough to end the fight unless your shot it perfect, something unlikely in a high stress situation where your fine motor skills go out the window.

I would look for something other than a .308 for self defense. A good handgun with defense loads, a shotgun with buck shot or a .223/5.56 rifle with soft point rounds will be a much better option for self defense than a .308 rifle. It's not like I've seen more than my share of actual shootings or anything so don't take my word for it.

Now a 308 isn't enough gun. Haha! Gotta love it.

People need to stop worshiping at the altar of the magical penetration depth number like it's the only metric in choosing a firearm or load. It's getting ridiculous. How wide do you think the average whitetail is shoulder to shoulder? It's not more than a foot unless you have a monster deer. How many stone cold dead deer have had bullets found just under the hide over the years? Millions. The world doesn't revolve around penetration alone.

COLOSHOOTR said:

If you have to fire a shot through an arm or it hits anything solid you may have a bad day because they might not go down.

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COLOSHOOTR said:

Less than 12" may not be enough to end the fight unless your shot it perfect,

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And 56" of penetration won't do diddly squat if the bullet doesn't go through something important on the way. A bullet reaching 12" isn't a magical token that makes the badguy go away.

COLOSHOOTR said:

It's not like I've seen more than my share of actual shootings or anything so don't take my word for it.

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I'm not going to take your word for it. Since you are passing yourself off as some sort of expert with personal experience on the matter, just how many close range self defense shootings have you seen with .308 rifles?

Always best to think of the neighbors.

I never said that penetration would make the bullet some magical one stop fight ending vodoo device. Sure 56" of penetration may not make a bit of difference if it's not a CNS hit or if there is not major blood loss. Even then I've seen guys run quite a distance after a direct shot to the heart. Just because 12" is the penetration in gelatin doesn't mean it's going through 12" in a body or the duty ammo we use would be going through many, many people that have been shot with that ammo and that is definitely not the case. My heart is probably 3-4 inches down in my chest (sorry it's hard to get a tape measure or calipers in there to be very precise) so why isn't that the standard instead of 12"? It's because gelatin is an approximation of performance in soft tissue but doesn't account for various densities of organs or bone than may be struck.

Nice little zombie land double tap photo. Too bad in practice it does not always work. There have been plenty of shootings where someone hit more than twice in the vital areas who were able to continue to fight or flee. I've also seen guys drop like a rock and go down screaming after being shot it the backside. It all depends on the will of the person shot. A good friend of mine took 7 to various parts of his body including multiple arterial hits and managed to keep fighting. He shot the guy that shot him once in the ankle ending his will to fight. Double taps are nice for zombie movies but are much harder to be accurate with in a real life situation when all those fine motor skills you count on are gone and you and the guy trying to kill you are both moving.

How many .308 SELF DEFENSE shootings have I seem with a .308? Absolutely zero. I have seen the results of a shooting with a .308 from about 3 feet away using grandpas hunting rifle but there was nothing self defense about it. I've never seen anyone shot in self defense with an AK or SKS either but I've seen more than my share of people who have been shot with those too. One of those we ran out of evidence placards so many shots were fired. Man can a 7.62z39 sure shatter bone and I've seen it nearly take off an arm (was only attached by some tendons and what little was left of the muscle. Most the shootings I see have nothing to do with self defense and usually revolve around gang violence or domestics. I also happened to have met a sniper from the Pacific Northwest during a training seminar who has shot someone with a .308 (not exactly close range though) and got to see the pictures. That bullet (168gr TAP) went through the suspect from the roof of the building across the street. One of the best speakers I've ever had the pleasure of listening too as well.

How many shooting investigations have you been a part of to get your expertise? If you don't believe me you should come visit Colorado this summer and I'll take you out on a ride along in the most gang active area of the State for you to see for yourself. I'm absolutely serious about that offer.

Oh, You're a patrol officer so you're an expert on firearms wounding. Hang on, let me call about 6,000 expert buddies of mine then.

Okay, so you've seen cases where people who should have died didn't and people who shouldn't have died did. Whooptie doo. That's the history of just about everyone who has worked around violence. They aren't all experts either.

Seriously, stop trying to shine on the Been There Done That Crowd. And maybe, just maybe, next time when using your experience to generate authority on a topic, make sure your experience actually includes the topic being discussed. No experience with the Hornady TAP 110? Got it. Check. Stop being That Guy.

Well once you've seen enough with your own eyes you start to get an idea of what works and what doesn't. I've also attended a wound ballistics seminars and seen the testing first hand. We didn't use any TAP rounds for that but we did use various other rounds that included lighter weight rifle rounds. The performance was sub par and a downright failure if there had to be any barrier penetration.

What experience or expertise do you have to bring to the table?

Besides being the expert on being condescending and rude do you have any actual experience with the lightweight TAP round? Any experience with wound ballistics to bring any insight to the conversation? Any reason why 9" is enough when 12" has been established as the standard? I you have any facts to support that the round is indeed an ideal self defense round I'll gladly take a look at them and will offer an apology to you and the OP if I'm wrong.

If you're just an armchair commando with no real experience go ahead and rant on about out me having no experience with the TAP round whIle providing no facts or experience of your own to add to the conversation. It's quite entertaining.... You are definitely being "that guy" so may want to take your own advice.

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Gentlemen! We should remain a unified front in our efforts to preserve our RKBA. Now then:

I'm not nearly the experienced shooter as is ClickClickD'oh or Coloshooter, but dagnabbit if I didn't nearly laugh out loud when I saw this serious? question asking about "defensive" rounds for the .308 cartridge. Good lowrd. Why.

Why, when there are so many other, better choices, such as a good pistol. If all one has is a rifle, and it's chambered in .308, that should be "defensive" enough! when the flag flies. But for (and although this descriptor was not necessarily in the thread title...) defense of one's abode? Come on. No. ...although I have never until reading this thread entertained the idea of such a light weight (for the .308 cartridge) bullet loading. Interesting!