.308 Home Defense Loads?

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

Cooldill,

It doesn't really provide any specific answers to your questions, but this is informative for the TAP line:
http://www.hornadyle.com/assets/site...tap_report.pdf

After seeing how well the 110gr fragments, I don't see why it's a bad choice for HD aside from the muzzle blast. If it fragments like that in BG, it won't stay together after going through a wall.

Did anyone else look at this link or did most just see .308 and Home defense in the subject line and just say it's a bad choice?

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

You guys might want to look at Page 94 of this Hornady Application Guide before you recommend stuff that will go through drywall or plywood and penetrate much further than the .308 110gr VMAX.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Defensive protection uses completely different weapons and tactics... As a Combat veteran and retired military with 35 additional years as a civilian defensive tactics under my belt.. I can tell you, a high powered rifle is the worst possible choice to keep a round contained within a structure.

You're wrong - and not just a little bit either.

 

[M1key]

Hey Cool, whatever happened to your pursuit of the .30 Carbine? I think it'd be a better choice, unless of course you have really bad neighbors.

M

 

[Hammer059]

As RCmodel mentioned, the noise, penetration, and maneuverability would be my biggest concerns.

You WILL have significant permanent hearing damage IF you don't just go completely deaf.

Sweet rifle, though!

 

[Panzerschwein]

Thanks for the replies guys, I'm really doing some ruminating. I'd love to hear more!

 

[Evil-Twin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil-Twin
Defensive protection uses completely different weapons and tactics... As a Combat veteran and retired military with 35 additional years as a civilian defensive tactics under my belt.. I can tell you, a high powered rifle is the worst possible choice to keep a round contained within a structure.

You're wrong - and not just a little bit either

.
__________________
Texas gunowners should belong to TSRA.


Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but unless a rifle can be loaded with a hollow point to prevent penetration and not expand quickly and reduce the feet per second velocity.. then its a bad choice... a 45 hollow point hitting dry wall joice will stop in the joice.. try that with any long gun...
The good news is that everyone has their opinion... including you... IM 70 years old and been through 22 months of combat and retiring from the army and 50 years of totalcarry, 35 as a civilian with two life threatening assaults; one a robbery and the other a car jacking IM still here ... .. IM not some kid at a video game..
The other good thing is that, One .. its good be be confident in your convictions.. as skewed as they are.. the other is I'm glad I don't have to live anywhere near where you live, especially if you defend yourself with a rifle... in a home environment...

The US Army preaches an 800 meter maximum effective range for the .308, the USMC preaches a 1000 yard (915 meter) max effective range. You try telling that to a dad 3/4 mile away, why you chose to defend your home with a 308 rifle, as the round enter this father's little girl's bedroom and put that round through her head.
IM dead wrong indeed... try telling that to the father of that little girl you just killed 3/4 of a mile away.
The most effective home defense weapon is a shotgun... its a perfect defensive weapon because the round components ( shot ) rarely leave the room let alone the house.
IM also entitled to my very educated opinion...

If my target is 3/4 of a mile away Ill use this...


I would hardly use this or any of my long rifles to defend my bedroom, or any room in my home.

 

[AKMtnRunner]

I'm not really sure, but they seem quite sturdy for the most part.

I just ordered 60 rounds of the Hornady TAP .308 110 grain Urban load. I'm going to see how reliable they are in my rifle. Everything I've read about and all the tests I've seen indicate that like the various 5.56/.223 defensive loads, these will expand and fragment and not overpenetrate. That is what they're designed to do. Many recommend using AR-15s for home defense, and with this load my rifle should exhibit very similar levels of penetration through various mediums as the .223/5.56mm loads, but with great wounding potential in the form of increased temporary and permanent stretch cavities.

Hornady specifically designed this load for an "urban" setting, hence the name. All the evidence points to them being best for my purposes, but I need to make sure they'll cycle my gun first before I order a full loadout of this round, hence why I only ordered 60 rounds. My PTR-91 has been reliable so far and they are well known to be reliable in general, so I feel 60 rounds should be sufficient to determine reliability.

I'll keep everyone updated on what transpires, and I am still open to other considerations and comments.

I seriously urge you to look into just what kind of construction your walls are made of. It's fairly easy to find out. Being built in the 1920's, there's a chance it's pretty tough but you really need to know for sure. Secondly, that 110 Urban load is interesting but exotic ammo is notorious for not performing as intended. Have some fun testing the ammo out for yourself with some material similar to what your walls are made of to find out more. Yes, it takes some time and energy but your neighbor's lives could depend on it.

 

[Spec ops Grunt]

How about other common 30 cals, like 30-30 and 7.62x39? Would either of those rounds have any good HD loads?

 

[Spec ops Grunt]

It's not a terrible idea. The concept of using a rifle for home self defense is one the LEO's already made.

What do you think the SWAT team will be carrying into the house to clear it? Not paintball guns. Most teams in America will be using the AR15, and many are equipped with government issue M16's with full auto capability.

There's going to be a lot of M855 steel penetrator flying around if the Department issues it. Of course, they will clear the surrounding neighborhood - if there is time. Often not enough if they show up and there is still gunfire.

The new tactic, home or school shooting, is to go in - not wait twenty minutes for the shooter to finish up. And it was changing long before that. The first responders DON'T WAIT - they start with the most favorable opening and if they get a target, they shoot first and ask questions later. That is an oversimplification - but it brings up another issue.

If you do successfully get to a safe room that the intruders can't readily enter, and they aren't shooting thru the walls (or simply removing them - and all it takes is a single edge razor, right?) then your next danger point is when the SWAT team enters and they start shooting.

It goes right back to this - you can buy all the highly developed low penetration scientifically proven magic bullets you want, the perps WON'T, and at best the Police will use TAP. Bullets are going flying thru walls and windows and there's going to be collateral damage. Hopefully not human.

Also goes to: your new sketchy neighbors who has visitors all night for less than ten minutes at a time. Are you really sure they aren't selling off their druglords stash, because I can almost guarantee that in the next six weeks he's sending a hit team to teach them some respect.

They won't care if their bullets come flying into your bed room windows or thru the walls of your kids room. Not to mention the driveby's from competitors who start firing at your front door so they can get his house covered wall to wall as they speed by.

People living in built up areas need to recognize it. Start stacking homes vertically and your floors or ceiling might be the entry point. Again, most of it will be from the lanes of fire, but there is no guarantee once the bullet hits a solid object and richochets.

Traditional stick and sheetrock construction is no match for ANY reasonable self defense cartridge. There is NO magic bullet that won't go thru a wall and will go 12" into a bad guy. Choose the most appropriate and reliable expanding tip bullet that will work and then worry about the bigger problem - where you choose a backstop.

Your neighbors will thank you.

Criminals don't care about lawsuits, and Police have a lot of immunity.


YOU defending your home, don't have that legal wiggle room that LEO's have. You don't have a police union armed with lawyers.

 

[AKMtnRunner]

The legal ramifications are out of our control besides our due diligence in minimizing collateral damage to minimize the chance of said legal ramifications. So it goes back to what will actually have less of a chance of hurting someone after penetrating walls. Bullet construction and weight are the biggest determinants, so the cartridge isn't necessarily telling.

Speaking for myself, I'd prefer my neighbor is prepared with a 110 gr bullet designed to quickly fragment over a 230 gr 45 acp that didn't fragment. But I'd still prefer a 55 gr .223 bullet because it would fragment more reliably than almost any other projectile. Another advantage of a centerfire cartridge from a long gun is that there's almost certain to be fewer rounds fired to stop a threat, which means far fewer misses.

The shot gun is tricky. 00 Buck pellets penetrate extremely well and birdshot may not be effective at stopping a threat, and they recoil a lot more than a .223/5.56.

 

[Tedzilla]

A sane person would only use deadly force to save their life or the lives of other innocents. You have go with what you've got... Be it .308 or a Whamo Wrist Rocket.
A VEPR 12 Gauge Shotgun with a 15 round mag loaded with rock salt might be an elegant answer to this conundrum. Stash $20 a week away and in less than a year you'll have a great response to apartment pests.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Evil Twin, here are some video game playing children who recommend using a centerfire rifle for home defense. You might want to give them a read despite your vastly superior combat experience:

Kyle Lamb - The Rifle for Home Defense - One Expert's Opinion
Larry Vickers
Mike Pannone
Pat Rogers
Clint Smith

To quote a 22yr Sgt. Major and SOF Assaulter "A carbine is great for home defense."

I can find you 20 different .45 JHP rounds that will penetrate drywall or plywood and then penetrate more ballistics gel than the 110gr Hornady load discussed above will.

Once again, this is simple physics. If you take a 110gr bullet and fragment it into 100 pieces, you've got roughly 100 1.1gr irregular chunks of metal (although that is obviously a simplistic example to make a point) that have high drag and no weight. They bleed off energy very fast - even though they started with a great deal of energy.

Here is yet another example of centerfire rifle and pistol bullets being shot through drywall:
http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/ammunition.html

The Rifle Forum Reading Library link above has links to other similar examples.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

How about other common 30 cals, like 30-30 and 7.62x39? Would either of those rounds have any good HD loads?

The trick to rifle rounds for self defense is high energy and bullet construction (a bullet the breaks up and does so quickly). You actually often get MORE penetration from shorter barrels as velocity drops because the bullet doesn't break up.

You also want to avoid some hunting types of ammo that are designed to stay together for deep penetration while mushrooming (i.e. A lot of commercial .30-30 ammo) - especially bonded bullets if you want to limit penetration. If you flip through the Hornady link earlier in the thread, they do make several types of low-penetration 7.62x39 ammo though (and each ammo has ballistic gel shots through bare gel, drywall and plywood you can look at for comparison).

 

[YankeeFlyr]

Cuz cops use them???

Bart R.:

So because cops use them in subdivisions doesn't make it irresponsible?

<Deleted>

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

No, it isn't irresponsible for good sound scientific reasons, already outlined and explained above - as well as links to more in-depth explanations.

Cops get sued repeatedly and frequently. A police department is backed by taxpayer money and has "deep pockets" so it gets shaken down pretty regularly when something goes wrong. Yet pretty much every police department in the United States has ditched their 9mm subguns and shotguns and replaced them with rifles. And we aren't talking SWAT or warrant service; but regular patrol cars.

Rifles in this role have seen widespread use for over a decade now and there has been plenty of validation in real world use: http://www.state.nj.us/lps/dcj/njpdresources/pdfs/wallboard_test.pdf

 

[Conelrad]

Get the .22LR kit for it and have less worry....

DG

 

[YankeeFlyr]

And police get sued all the time.

Sound, scientific methods don't include telling a newbie to use a 308 rifle for apartment defense. Sound, scientific methods also don't dictate what law enforcement has on hand for worst-case scenarios.

Not that most LE policy makers or cops in general (or most shooters) think a lot about terminal ballistics.

Get real. Please.

308-anything against apartment building interior walls is lunacy.

<Deleted>

 

[ku4hx]

Home defense with a semi auto .308 is like grocery shopping with a semi tractor and a 70' trailer. It can be done, but it's just maybe not a good choice.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

308-anything against apartment building interior walls is lunacy.

There is no firearm made that will meet the FBI minimum criteria (12-18" of ballistics gel penetration) and not zip right through a typical drywall & stud interior wall and still have the potential to be lethal to someone on the other side.

People somehow get this misconception that their shotgun or pistol isn't every bit as dangerous in this situation. Both of these also present a very real threat to neighbors in that environment.

In this case, the only firearm available is a .308. There isn't an option B or option C. It is the only gun he owns.

The Hornady .308 110gr VMAX actually doesn't meet the FBI criteria - it lacks enough penetration according to the Hornady literature linked earlier (page 94). It regularly fails to break 10" of gel, let alone 12". Penetration is also reduced after drywall and plywood barriers. Can it still kill someone after penetrating a wall? Absolutely. Just like the .45 JHP offering in the same catalog will go right through that same barrier and make an even deeper hole in whoever is on the other side (Page 25 - after penetrating wallboard .45 220gr Flextip penetrates another 13" of gel, after plywood another 15" of gel).

This is why shooting lanes, background and getting good training are important with any firearm.

 

[Davek1977]

Don't be fooled by marketing. Yes, there are "urban" loads out there for the .308. No one is arguing that. However, as nearly everyone has attested to, the .308, no matter what load is used, isn't an ideal or even preferred HD gun. The loads are made for people not unlike yourself, that want to push a weapon into a role it wasn't really intended for, and as such, may be the best available option withoutnactually being a GOOD option, if you know what I mean. Its like someone developing an elk bullet for the .223 Remington. It may be the bullet best designed for taking elk with the caliber, but that doesn't make the .223 a recommnded elk rifle. Just because there's a bullet or load made for a certain application doesn't mean its actually well-suited for the purpose.

 

[5.7Man]

I have a ptr 91 standing in the corner of my bedroom, it's got a 20 round magazine of federal 150 soft points in it. I plan on replacing that ammo with either the 110 or 120 grain load. The spare mag is loaded with ball.

My situation is rural and my house is surrounded by tree line.

I think you will be fine with the high velocity loads and lightly constructed bullets, they will be devastating.

You know your house and surroundings, make sure of your backstop.

 

[Ironicaintit]

In my previous post, what I was thinking was:
Load a 110 gr frangible projectile atop of a reduced powder charge to limit the velocity, and with a type of powder that would minimize/eliminate muzzle flash....yet with enough oomph to cycle the weapon reliably.

So the variable would be;
How fast does a frangible bullet need to be going, to reliably fragment?

 

[Panzerschwein]

Just for the record, I do not play video games and have not in years. I really don't understand what that has to do with this thread to begin with.

I've got 60 rounds of the mentioned Hornady TAP 110 grain load on it's way. Through all the tests I've seen and read about, it really does fragment dramatically when it impacts something. I am going to shoot them all for reliability and will go from there.

I am learning a lot about rifles for home defense, thanks guys! I would love to hear more as I want to compile all available information before I make the choice in using this rifle for the role I described.

 

[eldon519]

Cooldill, if it's what you go it's what you got. I certainly wouldn't let someone break in and NOT use it over What Ifs. Some of these guys make it sounds like you chose a nuclear warhead for HD. I think there are better choices, but I wouldn't run right out to buy something different just for that purpose. I think you are being pretty responsible for seeking out and testing the best ammo you can for the gun you've got.

As mentioned, anything that is satisfactory for HD whether pistol, shotgun, or rifle, is gonna shoot through walls. Some more than others, but it doesn't somehow nullify the risk in its entirety if someone chooses A over B or vice versa.