You're new at CCW and walk into a store robbery

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Unless you perceive that someone is going to get shot unless steps are taken, you're an idiot to get involved. Stand inconspicuously and observe everything.
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Standing there inconspicuously and observing everything is a BAD IDEA. If you walk in on an armed robbery as described in the OP, you are in danger. Maybe it is from the bad guy. Maybe it is from the clerk. Maybe it is from the other bad guy YOU DON'T SEE. Bystanders can and do get robbed in these events sometimes and they can and do get shot, sometimes killed. If you are not going to get involved (and not saying you should), then there is no reason to voluntarily remain in a bad situation if you have the option to leave that situation.
 
RX-79G said:
"Well officer, I caught my wife's lover stealing my iPhone. I'll bet you'll find it in his front left pocket."
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That's ridiculous and was not what I was saying. You can do the same thing now by that logic. "Well officer, I came home and my wife's lover attacked me. See, there's a knife in his hand". I never said we should just throw out the court system and any investigation into a shooting.
 
41 years ago when I was "new at CCW" I was probably young-&-ignorant :rolleyes: enough to have intervened if I found myself in the OP's scenario.

It wasn't long, however, before I had thoroughly thought thru my responsibilities and many potential situations and determined that my default in most cases is to LEAVE or, that not being an option, to find some cover and assume a defensive posture until the episode concluded.

My fundamental reason for carrying is to protect myself and any of my people who may be with me.

Food for thought.
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That it is, Tirod, especially for those who have not thought this through as thoroughly as they should.

Thank you for the thought-provoking OP. :)
 
Sam1911 said:
Oh good lord. That again?
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I had the very same facepalm and almost posted your exact post, but read a bit farther and found you had covered it.

I'll just advise that people read the law fully, and consult with an actual use of force expert (not just some washed up LTC instructor)... because the law doesn't say what most people want it to say.
 
The gun is to protect you and yours. You are not protecting yourself by getting involved in a potentially bad situation where you know almost nothing about what is really going on.
 
Flechette said:
Devil's Advocate question: You happen across someone attempting to rape a woman. What do you do?

Run, hide and be a good witness?
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how do you know a rape is being attempted?

you say it as if you would somehow know it when you see it, but there are a lot of people engaging in some pretty strange sexual antics out there on a completely voluntary basis.
 
Retired now,so

Once upon a time ,I was an LEO and " duty bound " to take action IF at all possible.

Now I am a citizen and it took real training and LOTS of reminders to see the world without the protection that my agency would have offered IF action was required.

Now I see that the ONLY REASON for me to deploy DPF [ deadly physical force ] is to stop the taking of life,mine or possibly others.

I say " possibly others " as I have to be 100% positive [ NO DOUBT AT ALL ] that the person I am about to help ----- is truly a victim,and my actions will be 100% viewed as required to save a life.

And I fully realize that my taking ANY action,could result in the perp firing and thereby taking a life ,in the line of fire.

I will NOT live with the thought that I could have done nothing,and not caused the death of an innocent.

So yes,there is a reason to CCW.

And yes ,there are situations in which I would use [ NOT display ] a firearm.

I do think the O.P. had a valid point and a good post for all [ especially newbies to CCW'ing ].
 
ilbob said:
The gun is to protect you and yours.
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Well, I would say your gun is for whatever lawful purpose you choose.

For some people in some situations, that may very well go beyond "you and yours".
 
The job of someone with a concealed carry permit is much, much easier than that of a peace officer. The peace officer has subdue and arrest the bad guy, and truck him off to jail. The job of someone with a concealed carry permit is first to survive, and second to be a good witness.

Gunfights are dangerous. It's a really good idea to stay out of a gunfight whenever you can.

If a robber demands cash, that's one thing. If he is in the process of bringing a firearm to bear on you, that's another. Simple robbery isn't worth spilling blood. Assault with a deadly weapon often is.

Simple rule: Look at what the BG has in his hands.
 
Thank you for the replies. My point seems to be taken, I gave it a few days without muddying the waters.

Point being, having a gun does not mean being in charge of the scene or making decisions that affect others negatively. Company policy? It's very widespread and it does govern our actions with the promise of reprisal - loss of the job. For some that is extremely important.

You can't simply walk into that scene and then attempt to assume control over the circumstances. It's not only presumptuous, it's intruding into a transaction involving that customer and clerk. Your view it might be illegal isn't off, it's the view that you as a Armed Samaritan and Hero is.

If the gunman turns and points it at you, of course, all bets are off. In no way am I attempting to say you cannot and should not make YOUR own decision. But neither is it a good thing for the clerk to recognize you and yell "DRAW YOUR GUN AND SHOOT THIS GUY!"

Puts the shoe on the other foot. Would you care for that - being caught flatfooted and outed as a lethal threat to the thug? It's less than 21 feet and he has his gun out already. The clerk just clearly escalated the situation and now lethal force is a threat to you.

Any experienced gun carrier who survives that encounter is going to insist on a long talk about it. Why is that so obvious but deposing the clerk easily justified so that you, the gun carrier, can exercise armed defense?

There are a lot of level headed answer here, but reading between the lines, I still see some with Hero complexes who are unwilling to let the clerk make the decisions about his handling of the situation. What I think I'm reading is some social inequality - clerks aren't capable of making decisions or assessing their own risk.

Change one detail and it highlights it - that store you walked into was a gunstore. Or cop bar in a CCW friendly state. I never said where it was - yet we automatically concluded it was someplace where clerks are always subservient to the public.

Are you setting up that by insisting they should be? Goes to another subject entirely, do you prefer ignorant no nothing clerks who are powerless or intelligent professionals who know what they are about? Too bad that's not the subject, but it does go to the point.

Why are you overriding their decisions and handling of the scene and intruding with yours? Most replies didn't go there, my point is for those who did and won't let it go. If that is on your mind, this discussion is for you.

I'll say it plainly, don't come into my store and escalate things. You have no legal authority to wrest control over the situation and insert yourself in deciding the welfare of others.

Just to sweeten that thought, tho, I'll say it again - perp points his weapon at you, I'm gone. You are now the focus and I'm going to demonstrate how it's done - seek cover and exit if at all possible. Good luck, and thanks.
 
You must always remember that as an armed citizen you are NOT a police officer. Think long and hard of your correct response before you are faced with any situation.
 
Zundfolge said:
If it is just about money, stay out of it.
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Problem is you don't know if it's "just about money" until after the BG has decided to be benevolent and leaves the scene without killing anyone.

There's many times that even after they get the money they still kill the clerk.

...

I can't imagine living with myself if I just stood there thinking "Oh its just about a few dollars" and watched some dirtbag kill some poor clerk.

I guess I also see the whole "I'm just going to protect me and mine to hell with everyone else" attitude as part of the reason this country is going to hell in a handbasket.
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Same here.
 
Zundfolge said:
If it is just about money, stay out of it.
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Problem is you don't know if it's "just about money" until after the BG has decided to be benevolent and leaves the scene without killing anyone.

There's many times that even after they get the money they still kill the clerk.

...

I can't imagine living with myself if I just stood there thinking "Oh its just about a few dollars" and watched some dirtbag kill some poor clerk.

I guess I also see the whole "I'm just going to protect me and mine to hell with everyone else" attitude as part of the reason this country is going to hell in a handbasket.
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There's a bit of an oversimplification in this that is crucially important to recognize and deal with.

I used to hang out with some very smart folks who studied violent encounters in detail that most of us (even here) do not. One thing they harped on is an expansion of the old maxim that there are more tools in the toolbox than just a gun, or said another way "Just because you have a hammer doesn't mean every problem is a nail."

What does that entail? Social skills. Observation, awareness, empathy, comprehension, cues, tells, signals, predictions, first impressions, and all the other facets of human social interaction that we all (except for those deep into the autistic spectrum) exercise every minute of every conversation of every day.

No, until a violent actor has completely vacated the premises for good, we cannot say with 100% certainty what he will do. But that does not mean we are without the ability to make useful and necessary life-or-death analysis and predictions about what he wants, what he intends to do, and what end this narrative is heading toward.

Many folks have made statements in the past that us good folks just cannot understand or predict the behavior of criminals because they're crazy. Or because they just don't think like "normal" humans. Or because they're random, chaotic, or just evil. It is probably comforting to think that violent people and criminal actors exist on some other spectrum of behavior that is mutually exclusive with yours, but it isn't so.

If you are without a weapon, and find yourself in a negative and/or violent encounter, you will be straining every synapse to read the cues being given off by the bad guy (and the other good guys) to try to figure out your most likely path safely out of this situation.

With a gun in your holster, that should still be the case. You have one other potential set of paths to take -- that's the only difference. Having a gun with you does not mean that you can or should exercise the option to shoot (at) or threaten the perpetrator simply because you (claim, here on the 'net) can't possibly know what he will do next.

That's baloney, and hopefully not something that any of us would actually act on in real life.
 
Sam1911 said:
If you are without a weapon, and find yourself in a negative and/or violent encounter, you will be straining every synapse to read the cues being given off by the bad guy (and the other good guys) to try to figure out your most likely path safely out of this situation.

With a gun in your holster, that should still be the case. You have one other potential set of paths to take -- that's the only difference. Having a gun with you does not mean that you can or should exercise the option to shoot (at) or threaten the perpetrator simply because you (claim, here on the 'net) can't possibly know what he will do next.

That's baloney, and hopefully not something that any of us would actually act on in real life.
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Very well said Sam and I believe, basically the same message that Tirod was trying to present. So many variables, so many options. One option is to pay attention to detail even before you enter. Folks tend to get complacent when doing routine things like making a quick trip to the store and windup walking right into a holdup while texting on their phone. Looking at what's going on inside and the demeanor of the other customers there can tell you a lot.
 
I spent about 5-6 years as an armored card guard/currier. my job was to take a lot of money in and out of stores and banks. we had some cowboys that would say ill shoot someone if they try to steal the money or rob a store. your best bet is to comply and not make things worse. if I walked into a store or bank and they got robbed its just money so let them take it. I would tell the new guys hell ill even give him an escort to his car if he wants because the minute you try and play quick draw McGraw and he's already got the gun out someone is going to get hurt. now when that first bullet flies then all bets are off and S&W and his 17 friends will come to play.

guys that are so quick to whip out a ccw for something so dumb as a $50 store robbery scare me. now say im walking to my car and someone decides they want to rob me and I know 100% that I can get away with it they will be taking a ride in an ambulance or white van.
 
Tirod said:
Thank you for the replies. My point seems to be taken, I gave it a few days without muddying the waters.

Point being, having a gun does not mean being in charge of the scene or making decisions that affect others negatively. Company policy? It's very widespread and it does govern our actions with the promise of reprisal - loss of the job.
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I think you are confused about which thread you are posting this follow up in. This is about a customer walking in on a robbery of a store clerk. This is not about being the store clerk (who has a gun pointed at him). Company policy is 100% irrelevant and you are pretty well guaranteed to not have a clue what it is.



Even in this alternate scenario where you are now the employee being held at gun point...I'm thinking that when a violent criminal is threatening to kill you, and is standing there with the means and opportunity to do it, being fired won't be a factor when deciding what to do
 
I carry everyday, almost everywhere I go. It is to be used only for the protection of my wife, my family, and/or me. If I incounter a woman being beaten up by her boyfriend, as somebody just mentioned, she's on her own. I will call 911. I'll be a witness. But, one of my rules is to never intercede into a fight between a woman and her spouse or boyfriend. Now, if the boyfriend attacks me ... all bets are off.
 
phil dirt said:
I carry everyday, almost everywhere I go. It is to be used only for the protection of my wife, my family, and/or me. If I incounter a woman being beaten up by her boyfriend, as somebody just mentioned, she's on her own. I will call 911. I'll be a witness. But, one of my rules is to never intercede into a fight between a woman and her spouse or boyfriend. Now, if the boyfriend attacks me ... all bets are off.
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Interesting.

How will you know it is her spouse/boyfriend?
 
Just because you carry does not mean you should get involved in a crime you happen to witness. That is not the point of carrying. If you think differently you missed something in your CCW class, did not pay attention, or had the wrong instructor.
 
Oldman1151 said:
Just because you carry does not mean you should get involved in a crime you happen to witness. That is not the point of carrying. If you think differently you missed something in your CCW class, did not pay attention, or had the wrong instructor.
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What we are discussing is not accurately described by "should get involved in a crime you happen to witness".

As to whether or not you should, well, that comes down to a heck of a lot of factors/variables, not the least of which is your personal decision.
 
"... never intercede into a fight between a woman and her spouse or boyfriend ...
because very often you end up having to fight both of them.

You're new at CCW and walk into a store robbery

If you carry concealed weapon you should think through multiple scenarios reallistically, what to do and what not to do, long before things happen. What's the right thing? Protect innocent life not endanger it. Be practical and be real; life is not a videogame, and in real life "game over" is forever.

Armed or unarmed, sometimes the best thing to do is remain as calm as possible, and be the witness who can accurately describe the robber to the responding officers.
 
Originally Posted by Oldman1151 View Post
Just because you carry does not mean you should get involved in a crime you happen to witness. That is not the point of carrying. If you think differently you missed something in your CCW class, did not pay attention, or had the wrong instructor.
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So now there is some sort of unwritten point of carrying to which people are supposed to subscribe? Just because you have X reasons for carry does not mean that your reasons are the same as somebody else's or that they are even relevant.

I find it amusing how much of this comes down to "If you don't think like I do, do it like I do, then you are wrong" attitude.

The law doesn't say have I have to subscribe to a particular point to carry. The law gives me a number of options on whether or not I decide to intervene. Maybe you missed that point in your CCW class?
 
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