Industry standard recently established at .355 for 9mm?

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franktheitaliantank

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So it says that industry standards are now .355... However, up until that point, most barrel diameters for 9mm were .354... (I got this out of my Lyman reload handbook and haven't been able to find anything on the internet about this)

I would MUCH PREFER a 9mm barrel/gun that is .354 diameter, so I will be looking at older 9mm's. Does anyone know when this standard was actually set? Which guns had a .354 diameter during that time? Thanks.
 
"Industry standards" are established by SAAMI. I own four 9mm's, and I've slugged the barrels on all. My oldest is a Browning Hipower that was made during WWll, and it measures .355".

Why do you prefer .354" ?
 
SAAMI issued 9mm specifications 1979.. They were revised in 2007. It doesnt say what was changed.

But the 9 was new to the USA then. Other country's would be different, is my guess?

9mm does convert to .354"

As far as wear, the lands will change before the groove diameter.
 
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welcome frank. would you reference your article excerpt so we can give you a good answer? your article must be talking about jacketed bullets. a .355" dia. lead bullet really won't work here. hatcher recommended a .359" diameter for lead bullets loaded for the 9mm luger. so, there are a lot of claims out there for what diameter a 9mm luger bullet should be. this should be an interesting thread.

fyi: my browning hi power has a .3575" groove diameter. .355" bullets don't work (cast or jacketed) well in this gun. i always use "357 magnum" bullets in this gun.

murf
 
Many factory barrels have groove diameter of .356"+ (many Beretta barrels at .357"+) and some have accuracy issues with .355" sized bullets. It is for this reason why Berry's sizes their bullets sightly larger at .3555"+ and RMR sizes their in-house 9mm bullets slightly larger at .356"+.

My KKM/Lone Wolf barrels range .355"-.356" and have produced good accuracy with .355" sized jacketed/plated and .356" sized lead bullets.
 
murf said:
welcome frank. would you reference your article excerpt so we can give you a good answer? your article must be talking about jacketed bullets. a .355" dia. lead bullet really won't work here. hatcher recommended a .359" diameter for lead bullets loaded for the 9mm luger. so, there are a lot of claims out there for what diameter a 9mm luger bullet should be. this should be an interesting thread.

fyi: my browning hi power has a .3575" groove diameter. .355" bullets don't work (cast or jacketed) well in this gun. i always use "357 magnum" bullets in this gun.

murf
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Thank you. It's from the Lyman Reloading Handbook 48th Edition. That right there is all it says about 9mm bore diameters. It says .354 is the most common bore diameter (or was when it was written) but it doesn't say which guns have those diameters. I like that 357 bullet solution. I didn't know that about lead, but I plan on using jacketed bullets.
 
9mmepiphany said:
How many rounds do you think it would take to wear out a quality 9mm barrel?

What would you estimate the difference in wear rate to be?
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I wouldn't know how to quantify that. But as you can see above, murf said he has problems with .355 in his .3575 diameter gun. A more snug fit will only help things. A .223 gun has a boar diameter of .223 but shoots .224 bullets for just that reason. So I want to shoot .355 bullets out of a .354 gun... I just don't know which older model 9mm I'd be looking for.
 
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It's the barrels that are the issue, not the bullets. Many 9MM barrels, especially older IMHO, are over .355 groove diameter. Plenty of aftermarket match barrels that will meet your requirements. If you can afford the components to wear one out, you can afford the barrel.
 
I'm probably reading the saami sheet wrong but I thought it stated groove diameter .355" with a + .004" for all dimensions. The end result is a bbl that could be .355"/.356"/.357"/.358"/.359" and still be in spec.

Which I good for firearms mfg's. They can now use the same reamers for 9mm, 38spl, 357, 357sig, 38super, 380acp (which is .3565" instead of .355"), 357max.

Myself I size everything I cast to .358" and use those bullets in the 9mm/38spl/357mag. And I size the jacketed bullets I swage for the 9mm's to .3555" and the jacketed bullets for the 38spl/357mag to .357".

9mm bbl's have been all over the place for awhile now. Couple that with the loose saami specs and the end result can be 1 firearm chambered in 9mm with a .358" bbl, a .776" long chamber that .383" wide with no throat and a 1 in 10 twist. And another firearm chambered in 9mm with a .355" bbl, a .755" long chamber that's .381" wide that's fully throated and a 1 in 16 twist.

The only thing they have in common is the 9mm stamped somewhere on the bbl/firearm.
 
When I shot NRA pistol matches, the 'smiths rebarreling them insisted their groove diameters had to be at least .0003" to .0006" smaller than full jacket bullets for best accuracy. Just like rifle barrels.
 
9mmepiphany said:
And yet, that would be the basis of your belief that a tighter bore would wear longer...which, by the way, isn't true.

There is nothing wrong with wanting a tighter bore, but you don't need to base it on unproven reasoning
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I'm not trying to argue or claim to know something that you don't. I'm just wanting to know specifically which barrels are .354. I don't want to have to keep buying 9mm's just to get them slugged to test them and see if it's what I want... and then be selling them if they're not.

I just want to know specifically which 9mm has that .354 bore.
 
Sorry, Frank, I don't know any way to be certain of getting a .354" 9mm factory barrel. Manufacturing tolerances and company practice just does not hold them that close. You cannot just shop for a Brand X Model 1995 and know you will get a barrel of any specific dimensions. For that matter, I don't know a custom barrel maker who offers undersize barrels.

While the target shooters like Bart want "tight" barrels for best accuracy, I don't know of anything that says an undersize pistol barrel will wear longer. You are talking about a service life measured in the tens of thousands of rounds anyhow.

I don't know what Lyman means by "recent" but I have the 1993 SAAMI 9mm spec as .355" groove diameter. That's GROOVE diameter, folks. I swear, I am going to call spring loaded box type ammunition feeding devices "clips" until the internet learns the difference between bore and groove diameter.
 
Jim Watson said:
I don't know what Lyman means by "recent" but I have the 1993 SAAMI 9mm spec as .355" groove diameter.
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Lyman 48th, where OP got the "recently established .355", came out in 2002. I have no way of checking, but I'm guessing that the 48th simply repeated the statement from 47th that came out in 1992. My 49th that came out in 2008 says the same thing. "Recently" ain't all that recent.
 
Jim Watson,

Are you going to call the 7.62 NATO round's commercial version a 30 caliber one based on the original definition of "caliber" as the barrel's bore diameter in hundredths of an inch? Or a 308 caliber one using its groove diameter spec in thousandths? What would you call it if it's bullets were .307", bore was ..299" and groove was .3065"
 
forrest r brought up the key to understanding 9mm luger bore and groove diameters. saami specs call for .355" +.oo4" (plus only) groove diameter. to be within saami specs, a 9mm barrel must have a groove diameter between .355" and .359". to find out your pistol groove diameter you will have to slug your barrel and measure it.

as mr. watson exclaims, the groove diameter is what is important here to find your proper bullet fit.

as mr. bartb proclaims, a bullet diameter from .003" to .006" greater than your groove daimeter will work best (read accuracy).

as mr. rule3 shows, saami specs are a necessary reference for answering questions about barrel/chamber dimensions and proper bullet diameters used.

and as usuall, a bunch of holes in paper will tell you if your bullet diameter selection is correct.

only my opinion, of course,

murf
 
"...when this standard was actually set..." 1901, when George Luger invented it. Suggesting it's a recent thing is nonsense.
"...bore diameter..." Has nothing to do with bullet diameter. The bore diameter is the size of the hole drilled in the barrel blank.
"...9mm does convert to .354"..." Which is the bore diameter. So is 7.62mm. Both are the European style of measuring barrel ID's.
.308" does not convert to 7.62mm. It converts to 7.82mm. Names of cartridges rarely have anything to do with their dimensions except metric designations. Moreso with commercial stuff. .308" is the groove and bullet diameter.
"...the 9 was new to the USA then..." It was new in 1902 when it was introduced by George Luger.
And the 9mm, like most pistol cartridges, rarely require any trimming.
 
Bart B. said:
Jim Watson,

Are you going to call the 7.62 NATO round's commercial version a 30 caliber one based on the original definition of "caliber" as the barrel's bore diameter in hundredths of an inch? Or a 308 caliber one using its groove diameter spec in thousandths? What would you call it if it's bullets were .307", bore was ..299" and groove was .3065"
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Well, Bart, I try to separate the advertising from the measurements. Since 7.62mm = .300" almost exactly, then yes, the .308 Win rifle is a ".30 caliber" by the traditional definition. But that is not what you ask the store clerk for.

If I saw a rifle with a .299" bore and .3065" groove shooting .307" bullets out of a .308 WCF-ish chamber, I might call it a Palma Rooneygun. (apologies to Jeff Cooper.) Krieger and Bartlein call the barrel blank it started with ".30 Tight".

My usual example on advertising versus dimensions is that the .218 Bee, .219 Zipper, .220 Swift, .221 Fireball, .222 Remington, .223 Remington, .224 Weatherby, and .225 Winchester ALL have nominal .224" groove barrels and bullets. But the .22 Remington Jet and .22 Savage Hi Power don't.


The only actual .354" GROOVE diameter barrel I have seen reliably reported was a 9x56 Mannlicher rifle. The gunzine writer was concerned about oversize so he had some regular .358" bullets centerless ground down to .354" to fit. That didn't thin the jackets enough to matter at Mannlicher velocity.
 
Sunray said:
"...bore diameter..." Has nothing to do with bullet diameter. The bore diameter is the size of the hole drilled in the barrel blank.
Click to expand...

I never said I was looking for a bullet. I am looking for a barrel that is .354... Or a whole gun with a barrel that is .354... Which guns (or even after-market barrel) would those be? That is the question. I suppose the only way someone might be able to tell me about a 9mm in .354 is if they slugged a barrel that happened to be .354... or people can tell me which 9mm's are NOT .354. That is helpful as well.
 
I have a Bar Sto barrel for my 92 fs and it's. 3555 according to their website. I replaced the barrel after I slugged the bore and it came out at .357. Called Beretta about it and was told that the SAAMI specs are for bore diameter is .355-.359.
 
Thing is, Frank, if somebody slugs a barrel and it happens to be .354", you are going to have to negotiate to buy THAT GUN. Or MAYBE find the next one off the assembly line. The tolerance for 9mm barrel groove diameter is.355" +.004", - 0," so you are already looking for an out of spec pistol.
 
Jim Watson said:
Thing is, Frank, if somebody slugs a barrel and it happens to be .354", you are going to have to negotiate to buy THAT GUN. Or MAYBE find the next one off the assembly line. The tolerance for 9mm barrel groove diameter is.355" +.004", - 0," so you are already looking for an out of spec pistol.
Click to expand...

The picture I posted from the Lyman Reloading Handbook 48th Edition says: "the most common diameter for this cartridge is 0.354... all barrels of 0.354" to 0.356"

That means there are some older guns out there with .0354 barrels. The way they make it sound, MOST of the 9mm guns produced at some point in time, had .354 barrels.
 
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