"40 is a dead caliber"

JO JO said:

I can not believe that the 9mm is now equal to a 357 mag ?
I do agree with some of what you say but the 9mm is just a 9mm I can't see how due to internet hype its now equal to the 357 mag ,
I bet next month we could use the mighty 9mm as a sniper round , ship deck gun or field artillery round I just do not believe its equal to a
357 mag or a 45 acp or a 40, it has been said that the 9mm is comparable to a 38 spl but you have more rounds carried
this is just getting silly now !!

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Okay, you have certain beliefs. How did you end up with them? What sort of test or data would make you change them?

I think people have trouble believing that a few hundred FPS or a millimeter doesn't transform a chunk of lead into a kinetic energy weapon, but it doesn't. Handgun rounds throw fairly low velocity rounds into a bag of mostly water, and that isn't a scenario that is going to produce spectacular results. All of these rounds just make holes, and the holes are more similar than different.

http://www.ballistics101.com/
You can look here there is a fair amount of difference it energy foot pounds of these calibers with the 357mag hitting 800 + ft lbs energy how can you possibly compare a 9mm to that ??
The 9mm must run at +p+ or better to compare to the others at that point the 9mm recoil and gun wear increases a great deal plus the fact that the 9mm
pocket type you talk about will loose even more performance as most of the 9mm +p+ ballistics are figured with a service pistol not a micro 3in barrel pistol
To each his own and I do believe a person needs to shoot what they can accurately hit the target with like said before a hit with a 22 is far better then a miss
with a 45 !! 

JO JO said:

http://www.ballistics101.com/
You can look here there is a fair amount of difference it energy foot pounds of these calibers with the 357mag hitting 800 + ft lbs energy how can you possibly compare a 9mm to that ??
The 9mm must run at +p+ or better to compare to the others at that point the 9mm recoil and gun wear increases a great deal plus the fact that the 9mm
pocket type you talk about will loose even more performance as most of the 9mm +p+ ballistics are figured with a service pistol not a micro 3in barrel pistol
To each his own and I do believe a person needs to shoot what they can accurately hit the target with like said before a hit with a 22 is far better then a miss
with a 45 !! 

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Compare it how? Shooting at armor plate, or into a water filled torso.

No one is comparing the numbers and saying they are all the same. They are comparing the effects measured in the only ways that matter and are saying that the effects are all very similar. It is a case of diminishing returns.

Ok to each there own carry what you like, the topic is about if the 40 is dead and that is untrue bs hype the 40 is alive and well and will be for decades to come, as the caliber debate will last decades to come
Myself I would not want to be shot with
any of them

JO JO said:

Myself I would not want to be shot with
any of them

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Of course not. They are all at least as dangerous as the current 9mm loads.


As far as "dead" goes, very few modern calibers are "dead". But there are calibers that are growing, holding steady and diminishing. .40 is not currently growing, so the real discussion with whether it is steady or shrinking in sales.

I found this chart from LuckyGunner to be quite interesting. For 2013, 9mm and 45 ACP outsold 40S&W on a revenue (not number of rounds sold) basis, but all three were still in the company's "top five". I know these are the sales of a single firm and so not dispositive, but it is a firm that does a significant volume of retail business and suggests the 40S&W is still alive and well.

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/2013-ammo-stats/

What was it, 4 years ago that the gun worlds hair was on fire about the Gov hoarding 40 cal ammo? I guess that's over now.

JO JO said:

40 is alive and well, many if not most LE agency's carry it, the FBI field teams do not carry 9mm only the desk flyer's, Dept Homeland Security carry 40,
ICE, Border Patrol,U.S.Coast Guard all issue 40 s&w and so on, if I understand it correctly the FBI and some LE agency's offer the 9mm as a choice after
the shooter fails to qualify with a 40, in my area its the opposite 9mm is a ccw / back up and duty guns are 40 or 45 , Heck even the U.S Army want a larger
caliber, didn't the Marines go back to the 45 ?
I really think the 9 vs 40 is just a past time debate pick one you like and don't give the gun counter guy much thought, 9 / 40 / 45 / they will be here many years to come it comes down to WHAT YOU LIKE not what a gun counter guy likes !!

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BSA1 said:

"40 is alive and well, many if not most LE agency's carry it, the FBI field teams do not carry 9mm only the desk flyer's, Dept Homeland Security carry 40, ICE, Border Patrol,U.S.Coast Guard all issue 40 s&w and so on, if I understand it correctly the FBI and some LE agency's offer the 9mm as a choice after the shooter fails to qualify with a 40, in my area its the opposite 9mm is a ccw / back up and duty guns are 40 or 45,"

Just because Law Enforcement Agencies are using the .40 it doesn’t mean it is the caliber of choice. In a large nearby city of 400+ officers the issue sidearm is the Glock Model 23 chambered in 40 S&W. The training department has recommended switching to Glock Model 19’s chambered in 9mm as it is easier for Officers to qualify and it is less expensive due to 9mm being cheaper and guns last longer than the .40’s.


However the Administration are not “gun guys” and they have choose buying body cameras for their officers. The Chiefs of the smaller bedroom communities are mostly retired high ranking P.D. Officers so it is largely a matter of “Monkey see, Monkey do.”


Heck even the U.S Army want a larger caliber, didn't the Marines go back to the 45?

Er, no. The Marines are dropping the 45 and adopting Glock 9mm’s.

I really think the 9 vs 40 is just a past time debate pick one you like and don't give the gun counter guy much thought, 9 / 40 / 45 / they will be here many years to come it comes down to WHAT YOU LIKE not what a gun counter guy likes !!

Sales of 9mm handguns will continue to increase while the 40 will languish.

edited to clarify that the Glocks I am writing about are the Glock Model 19 chambered in 9mm and Glock Model 23 chambered in 40 S&W.

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LE Still carry 40s here on the west coast. Military use FMJ where as we don't have bullet restrictions...Gold Dots and others work great!!!!!

There are some extremely good deals on 40 cal pistols right now, so if that is a side effect of declining popularity, than thats good for the buyer.

I predict 40 cal will remain a staple caliber for a long time.

jo jo said:

You can look here there is a fair amount of difference it energy foot pounds of these calibers with the 357mag hitting 800 + ft lbs energy how can you possibly compare a 9mm to that ??

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Since you seem to be impressed by energy differences of a few hundred ft-lb, you should be in awe of a TV remote with two "AA" batteries. Those batteries have about 7,000 ft-lb EACH of energy, you'll be in control of almost 14,000 ft-lb!

You really want to impress your gun buddies, carry one of those flashlights that hold four "D" cells. At over 55,000 ft-lb each, you'll have almost a quarter of a million ft-lb of energy!

Wow now we are comparing batteries to bullets !! I need to impress nobody ,
And you are right the D cell mag light has a lot of energy if you thump someone in the coconut with it, but back to the post the 40 is very much alive and well and so is the 9 and 45
I believe these 3 will be the top 3 calibers for years to come to put them in order is a personal choice

Thanks to the miracles of reloading, very very rarely is a caliber actually dead

Elkins45 said:

"40 is a dead caliber"

That's what I was told by the guy behind the counter at Kentucky's largest gun shop. I was unaware of this: when is the funeral?

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When I switched my match caliber from 9mm/45ACP to 40S&W in the 90s, some told me the 40S&W was an inherently inaccurate caliber and the fad would fade soon.

I spent the following decades enjoying the benefits of meeting major power factor with relative ease, meeting minor power factor with less than 9mm recoil loads, cheaper 9mm range practice with 40-9 conversion barrels with added benefit of 9mm Major option of using barrels with more metal around the chamber/bore.

If 40S&W was a fad, I sure didn't see it on the grounds of range floor by the way of spent brass and more than 20 years later, I am still finding 40S&W spent brass whenever I go shooting.

If 40S&W is dead, it sure is kicking and screaming.

bds said:

If 40S&W is dead, it sure is kicking and screaming.

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http://25.media.tumblr.com/450217c09c57e9087e7cc049db4ebd75/tumblr_mhxwldnKeA1qaa97co2_250.gif

I'm no expert! I know nearly nothing of ballistics. Bigger hole makes more sense to me.
Some time ago when I was in the market for a semi auto I had the occasion to talk at length to a sheriffs deputy in Wisconsin. I asked him about his firearm (a .40 Ruger) to which he replied " The department ran tests on the 9mm and .40. The .40 had more stopping power". For a while I was asking law enforcement people that I was able to talk to about their gun. To a man/woman they all said ".40". I'm talking metro police officers to border patrol agents.
I bought a .40. I've since bought a 9mm. I like both

All this 40 talk is dangerous. I keep looking at clearanced .40s at Academy Sports. $349 for a pre-2016 gen Walther PPS in 40. Kinda "needing" a slim carry gun that bridges the gap between my Glock 19 and my Beretta Pico

bds said:

If 40S&W is dead, it sure is kicking and screaming.

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Dead dead dead...

I'm far from a .40 S&W devotee, it is my least favorite of the "Big Three" (9x19, .40 S&W, .45 ACP). That said, whether it is objectively better, the same, or worse than the 9x19, it isn't going anywhere. There are millions of guns chambered for it, many of them available at discounted prices right now. That means the guns will keep selling. I've seen as much as a $350 difference between the NIB prices of the HK P30 in 9mm and. 40 S&W, the 9mm was $350 more.

I'm old enough to remember when the .40 took the LE/defensive pistol market by storm. At the time the 9x19mm was reported to be dead. Clearly it wasn't and isn't, it was just less popular for about 20 years.

There are plenty of good reasons to own/use a .40 and they haven't changed since the resurgence of the 9mm. There are also plenty of reasons to own/use a 9mm. Both work, both have advantages and disadvantages, having both means options.

There may be a handful of LE agencies switching from .40 S&W to 9x19mm, including the accountants and attorneys with guns, but I seriously doubt that will be a widespread change. Most cops are not gun people. As such, their knowledge about handgun effectiveness tends to be limited. In my experience the vast majority of officers would see changing from a .40 to a 9x19mm as a significant downgrade. For specific law enforcement tasks the .40 does work very well, it tends to have better barrier penetration than the 9x19 while still offering near 9mm magazine capacity. It is harder to shoot well and more expensive to train with. Everything is a trade off.

It isn't going anywhere anytime soon, it might be less popular for a while but it is always going to be in police holsters and on store shelves.

JohnMc said:

Thanks for the link; good and funny stuff. "This is because big game has, undeniably, become progressively harder to kill during the last century." "(Today, of course, we all know that even the smallest deer have become completely immune to .357 Magnum bullets.)"

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Makes you kind of wonder how Davy Crockett was able to kill a bear with his little flintlock.
Steve

Steve Cover said:

Makes you kind of wonder how Davy Crockett was able to kill a bear with his little flintlock.

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My guess is it had that shoulder thing that goes up. Those make everything deadlier.

https://www.thefreelibrary.com/The+...ating+Colonel+Crockett's+rifle...-a0110470560

It would appear that he enjoyed a .40 cal back then
Had to say it

JO JO said:

https://www.thefreelibrary.com/The+...ating+Colonel+Crockett's+rifle...-a0110470560

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Thanks, that was an interesting read.
Naturally, my point was that Crockett's rifle was a black powder firearm shooting a round ball and was still able to kill a bear while not being one of the newer super cartridge arms.

All the hype that now a newer more powerful cartridge (Like the Spoof Post I listed) suddenly makes all other cartridges obsolete is bunk.

The 40 S&W will be around a long time.

Steve

Steve Cover said:

All the hype that now a newer more powerful cartridge (Like the Spoof Post I listed) suddenly makes all other cartridges obsolete is bunk.

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I totally agree , many of lives lost from the round ball both animal and man

Steve Cover said:

Naturally, my point was that Crockett's rifle was a black powder firearm shooting a round ball and was still able to kill a bear while not being one of the newer super cartridge arms.

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You can kill a bear wtih 9mm ball as well. What does that have to do with the selection of the most effective JHP ammo for defense against dangerous people?