.38 Special +P and K-frames?

Any Model marked S&W can be used with +P ammo. Your 67-1 is no problem. A 1905 Hand Ejector, say a pre-10 (not Model marked) from the 1940's or early 50's would not be. Model marking started around 1957.

Stu

stu1ritter said:

Any Model marked S&W can be used with +P ammo. Your 67-1 is no problem. A 1905 Hand Ejector, say a pre-10 (not Model marked) from the 1940's or early 50's would not be. Model marking started around 1957.

Stu

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Yep.

Don

Smith & Wesson has stated any all steel revolver with a model number (post 1957) is safe to shoot with +P ammo. It us Saud any post WWII revolver is safe but in this case that doesn't matter, your revolver according to S&W can safely fire +P ammo.

Never trust YouTube, don't trust Wikipedia and don't trust the opinions of strangers on the Internet. Always check with the source, in this case S&W.

ArchAngelCD said:

Never trust YouTube, don't trust Wikipedia and don't trust the opinions of strangers on the Internet. Always check with the source, in this case S&W.

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Lord, don't get me started. I am continually amazed at the number of folks who take it upon themselves to be educators on YouTube when they don't have a friggin' clue.

Look at the ballistics for standard velocity .38 Special in the 40's, 50's, and 60's, and compare it to the relatively anemic +P offerings of most manufacturers today and you won't worry much about using so-called +P in any steel frame K-frame made since WWII.

I have some Winchester 158 LSWCHP .38 Special +P that is advertised at only 890 fps out of a 4" barrel. This in no way approaches the specs of the time honored "FBI Load" and is even slower than many "standard pressure" loads of the past. I have no qualms using it in my 1957 vintage 2" Pre-10 M&P.

I had an older m and p revolver made in 1948, I had shot over 3000 rounds of plus p ammo, mainly that speer lawman brand and federal hydrashoks and the gun held up well. Take that for what its worth. Not much if I said it according to the Mrs.

.308 Norma said:

Thanks folks.
I won't worry about it anymore. The fact is, I don't even have any store-bought .38 Special +P ammo around. But I think I'll go ahead and try some of my own loads in my K-frame, 67-1 now. I'll bet shooting +P ammo in that is a heck of a lot more comfortable than shooting it in the little "Airweight" J-frame snubby I usually carry.

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Shooting a 158gr bullet @900 fps is a pleasure in a heavy 4" revolver like the M67. Shooting target wadcutters is even more comfortable. You are going to have some fun with that gun and your handloads.

My 67-1 eats +p like candy. It's not bad with wadcutters either. Timed league shooting 50 shots standing off hand from 5-25 yards. Best effort on my end. You may ignore the cat butt in the corner of the picture.

Look at the ballistics for standard velocity .38 Special in the 40's, 50's, and 60's, and compare it to the relatively anemic +P offerings of most manufacturers today and you won't worry much about using so-called +P in any steel frame K-frame made since WWII.

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Best answer on here. And he is correct. The original 38 special was a real step up from the 38 long colt it replaced. Now what is termed '38 special" is not really any better than 38 colt. And +P struggles to match original 38 special loads. Want to see what real 38 specials are? Pick up a box of Sellior & Bellot 38 special round nose lead rated at around 950 fps. http://www.sellierbellot.us/products/view-product?id=142 Click on the Ballistics tab

You may or may not find this useful:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...model-10-and-the-38-special-cartridge.737941/

ETA from the great rcmodel (RIP):

The SAAMI .38 Spl +P rating system came about in 1974.
At that time standard pressure was lowered, and +P was increased very slightly over what used to be standard pressure, and Hi-Speed ammo was dropped from production.

As of 1975, .38 Spl standard pressure was 18,900 CUP, +P was 22,400 CUP.
As of 1998 it was 17,000 PSI and 20,000 PSI.
As of today it is 17,000 PSI & 18,500 PSI.


Prior to 1974:
The Standard pressure 158 LRN grain factory load was rated at 855 FPS.
The Hi-Speed load was rated at 1,090 FPS.

Under todays SAAMI standard, the same 158 grain load is rated at 755 FPS.
The +P is rated at 890 FPS.

As you can see, +P is no more likely to damage a modern gun then standard ammo was likely to damage it in 1970, or 1950, or 1930.

And it is way less likely to damage it then those old .38 Spl Hi-Speed loads that were much closer to todays .357 Mag then todays .38 Spl, either standard, or +P.

rc

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.308 Norma said:

Very nice!
Nice set of grips too. Pachmayers, aren't they?

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Yep, I believe those are Pachmayr presentation grips. Indispensable in my opinion, the factory wooden grips are simply unusable in my hands. My 617 wears Hogue finger groove grips but I think the Pachmayrs are a better fit. My palms are longer than my fingers and my crooked pinky fingers don't agree with the Hogue notches.. Curious if anyone else uses them for the same reason.

Try some of those Sellier&Bellot rounds i sugjested and you will see why the 38 special was such a popular police service round. In a light weight model 10 with the "skinny" barrel and it has a fair amount of recoil. Its a much better round than the 38 long colt. Now if S&B would just load some semi wadcutter hollow points to the same pressure they might have one of the best 38 specials rounds on the market. I load my own with winchester 231 or alliant Blue Dot.

Sean looking at your grips it looks like they have finger grooves in them. If they do they might be the "Gripper" model.

Here is a page from Midway with Presentation Grips.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/6...ps-s-and-w-k-l-frame-square-butt-rubber-black

Grippers

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/6...ps-s-and-w-k-l-frame-square-butt-rubber-black

I put Presentation Grips on my 6" model 10. I had to shift the gun around too much in my hand when shooting it. The new grips made a world of difference for me.

Ratshooter said:

Sean looking at your grips it looks like they have finger grooves in them. If they do they might be the "Gripper" model.

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You are correct, not sure what I was thinking. I prefer the more classic look without grooves but the harder rubber and more finger groove placement on the Pachmayr are wonderful to use.

When I bought my presentation grips I didn't want to pay $32 + shipping so I did a search on Ebay and found a used set for $8 IIRC. It took a little while but it can be done.

.308 Norma said:

Thanks folks.
I won't worry about it anymore. The fact is, I don't even have any store-bought .38 Special +P ammo around. But I think I'll go ahead and try some of my own loads in my K-frame, 67-1 now. I'll bet shooting +P ammo in that is a heck of a lot more comfortable than shooting it in the little "Airweight" J-frame snubby I usually carry.

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I have set aside some fired brass, some nickel, that is stamped "+p". If you like, I can send it to you. Could help with being sure what's what.

.308 Norma said:

Very nice!
Nice set of grips too. Pachmayers, aren't they?

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What's a good revolver thread without a sidebar on grips? My 67-1 wears Sile targets, which seem to suit my smallish hands fine and provides a nice classic look.

These frequent Plus P threads are dangerous. First, Plus P use all the time will result in cylinder endshake occurring sooner, and is unnecessary. Plus P is for killing things. You don't need that power for tin cans, most small game or targets. Use of Plus P will especially accelerate wear in J-frames and should not be used in light alloy frames not specifically Rated for it, and then in moderation. Massad Ayoob stretched the alloy frame on a Model 38 S&W in just 500 rounds!

Second, Plus P is not all the same. Remington is much less enthusiastic than Buffalo Bore or another brand or two, which is probably at or above former .38-44 pressures.

Steel frames aren't all equal. S&W didn't begin heat treating M&P cylinders until some time in 1919. Use of an older M&P with Buffalo Bore or Underwood ammo might not a good thing, at all!

Finally, the way in which velocity has been measured changed some years ago. The system for measuring not only went from a copper crusher to a different system, but velocities are now taken in four-inch vented barrels, more like an average revolver. They were previously measured in an 8.3 inch pressure barrel, without the gap found between barrel and cylinder in revolvers. So, today's velocities seem milder but may not be!

Some Plus P works better than others. A warm lead SWC-HP works most of the time, especially if the bullet really opens, and Speer's 135 grain Short Barrel loads work well in police use. They have a good, proven street record. Light bullets of 95-110 grains may not penetrate deeply enough. And sights in fixed-sight guns are set for 158 grain ammo.

You can't generalize about Plus P. Some firms simply don't load as hot as others although both are SUPPOSED to remain within SAAMI standards, IF they are made in the USA. S&B is a Czech brand, loaded to different specs.

The ultimate threat is that a Buffalo Bore round or the old .38-44 Hi-Velocity ammo might be fired in a pre-1919 S&W. I think Colt also disapproves of Plus P in old guns. Rugers will be safe, because they weren't even made in .38 until pretty recent times. Bill Ruger made .357's before he made .38 Specials

.308 Norma said:

That's a good looking set of grips too, RealGun.
I have medium-large hands, and my 67-1 currently wears a set of regular old Hogue rubber grips. I have a set of Pachmayer "Grippers" on the way though.

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I think you'll like the Grippers. I have a set on my Ruger GP-00. They fit my hand better than Hogues. On S&W K-frame guns, I prefer Pachmayr Presentation or Uncle Mike's grips. The latter are no longer made, but can still be found new in boxes.

ArchAngel and Lone Star are both correct.
I have a S&W "born" in 1957 that does not have the model prefix. I have no need to shoot +p in it but it would handle a cylinder or two per year for a long time. The major issue on the post WWII steel revolvers (not +p rated) will go out of timing sooner with a steady dose of +p and may develop endshake as noted above. Alloy and Model 36's are something else due to their design as Lonestar notes and old ones are not suitable for such loads.

Be especially sure that you don't fire heavy .38-44 type +p loads in a standard .38 special (+p or not). These approach light .357 magnum loads and are not good for your revolver at all. Look at the fps claims for factory ammo and if it is much faster than something like Remington .38 +p, then you probably shouldn't fire it in a K-frame except in one chambered for .357's or an old N frame .38-44 Smith.