K frame steel differences?

[tjmga]

I really appreciate this forum, I have been a lurker for some time and usually find my questions answered before having to ask. So, this is my first, or second post.
I have a pretty nice K frame model 14-3, 38 special, was told it was made in 1970. I contacted the factory to see if they recommended using +P ammo. The reply was no, not recommended. My question is if the model 14, 38 special and the model 19, 357 are both K frame guns why is +P ammo not recommended. Was there a difference in steel composition between the 19 and the other K frame guns. Whats the deal or did I talk to one of their lawyers.
Thanks for any help
tj

 

[WestKentucky]

Could be a heat treatment thing. They only were trying to achieve X metallurgy for 38spl but had to achieve Y for .357. Doubtful they are truly different but they may be.

 

[.308 Norma]

Welcome to the forum tjmga.
I don't have an answer for you, but I will point out that there are older j-frame Smith 38 Specials that are not rated for +P loads, yet there are new j-frame Smith 357 Magnums around too.

did I talk to one of their lawyers.

I don't think so.

 

[bannockburn]

tgmga

Probably like what WestKentucky suggested; differences in heat treatment (and possibly metallurgy), might be why a .38 Special K frame doesn't have a +P recommendation while a .357 Magnum K frame does.

 

[Sistema1927]

You probably can't afford enough +P ammo to destroy that 14-3. Recognize that .38 Special ammo is pretty well neutered these days, and +P is essentially what was sold as normal in days past.

 

[Iggy]

I was told by S&W that any model marked revolver was good to go with +P. As Sistema said, Plus P about equals the old time standard .38 Specials.

 

[BobWright]

I had the opportunity to visit the Smith & Wesson factory some years back. There were only two types of steel in stock, stainless and carbon. This came in round bars, about 3" in diameter, and were identified only by the color of paint on the ends. Frames were forged and cylinders machined and then were heat treated. As to any difference in heat treatment I couldn't tell, nor would anyone say.

We were kept some distance from the frame forging process, but did see the trip hammers at work. To make other parts, the bar was fed into a machine that looked like a USPS delivery van. We could see the cutter forming the part while being cooled with a turquoise liquid looking a little like automotive anti-freeze.

For revolvers parts were delivered to a one-man work station who assembled and fitted the parts.

 

[tjmga]

All
Thank you for your answers so far. Logic says that they most likely did not have different steels to be forged into the same frame. It also says that it is possible that they sent the the frames to two different heat treatment lines but I don't think it is probable. If there is truly a difference between the 14 and 19 frames it would be a dangerous situation if the frames mistakenly got mixed during the manufacturing process. As others have said on this forum that most likely it was a marketing thing. I have no plans of going to extremes in mu reloading but the book numbers seem very low.
Thanks and keep your thoughts coming.
tj

 

[sgt127]

As already mentioned, common wisdom is that all model marked .38 K frames are good to go with +P ammo.

Any heat treat changes were well in effect by the 1970’s.

Try and wear it out...

 

[I6turbo]

+P ammo isn't very hot. I would have zero concerns shooting it in a 1950s or newer K Frame.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I can no longer find it but a while back I read S&W said and all steel revolver with a model number (post 1957) is perfectly safe with +P ammo. Most people believe any post WWII all steel revolvers are safe, I don't know.

I wish I could find that statement now to link to.

 

[Will_G]

I can no longer find it but a while back I read S&W said and all steel revolver with a model number (post 1957) is perfectly safe with +P ammo. Most people believe any post WWII all steel revolvers are safe, I don't know.

I wish I could find that statement now to link to.

This post may be like the statement you are thinking about:

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...mmo-in-an-older-model-10.204371/#post-2496117

 

[ArchAngelCD]

That is very similar to what I read and it came directly from S&W.

Thanks for the find.

 

[Tallball]

I'm very careful with my firearms. That's probably why I've had some of them for over 30 years and they still function perfectly. I would use non +P at the range and for plinking and so forth, just to be gentle with it. Lighter loads punch holes in paper every bit as well as heavy loads do.

I also wouldn't hesitate to keep it loaded with +P for SD.

That's what I do with my own 38's,

 

[CajunBass]

You'll hurt your wallet a lot more than that revolver with factory P+ ammo.

As for why Smith & Wesson would tell you "no." Because "no" is "Lawyer Speak" for "We didn't tell you it was OK, so if you get hurt don't blame us." There was no such thing as P+ in 1970, so they couldn't rate it for P+.

And to be fair to S&W. You call up and ask "Is it OK to shoot P+?" You have a specific ammo in mind I would imagine, or at least a range. Smith & Wesson on the other hand has no idea what YOUR definition of "P+" is. For all they know you're talking about filling a 38 case with Bullseye powder and seating a bullet. That's why most manufacturers will tell you not to use reloaded ammo. Easy answer it to just say "no."

 

[tjmga]

I've followed up on many of the links posted and the follow up links that came from them. and it appears I am not breaking any new ground and this subject, as it has been brought up many times in the past. Thank you everyone for bearing with my redundant question. I guess I was looking for outside reinforcement that I wasn't doing something awful to my model 14. After reading the above comments and applying my own common sense, I'm going to continue loading my 158 jacketed loads to 900 f/s and not worry about it. One of the thoughts that stirred this question was that a 124 gr. 9mm at 1100 f/s was a great defensive load but the 38 special could barely punch a hole thru paper. If I can load a 38 special 125 gr bullet to 1100 f/s it will do the same. I have a 38 special and I don't need another gun. Maybe that's the underlying goal after all, to get us to buy another gun.
Thanks to all,
tj

 

[WestKentucky]

Just throwing this out there...most 38 caliber and 9mm guns bores fluctuate more than .355 to .358. Quite often a 38 caliber bullet will not chamber is a 9mm, but a 9mm bullet in a 38 caliber gun will almost always work. I don’t see a difference in leading, or accuracy with any of mine.

 

[sgt127]

1976 Sa-So catalog. S&W ammo...


I remember shooting it. It was hot stuff. Never chronographed it.

I think they were being pretty generous with those velocity figures.

 

[Slamfire]

I think the main problem will be wear on your extractor star and cylinder hand. You shoot your revolver out of time, just who is going to work on it? S&W won't. They don't have the parts.

 

[Quackattack]

Just my two cents. Since the gun is not rated for “+p” I would not chance messing up such a beautiful piece of “back in the day.” Just like the old model 19 I used to have. I didn’t dare shoot magnums from it. I wanted my stuff to last as long as they could.

 

[CajunBass]

I think the main problem will be wear on your extractor star and cylinder hand. You shoot your revolver out of time, just who is going to work on it? S&W won't. They don't have the parts.

In my case, if I didn't already have a spare in the safe (I do), I'd just go buy one. It's not like Smith & Wesson 38's are rare.

 

[Jim NE]

To be honest with you, if the OP's warning against +P ammo in a 1970 era model 14 came from "the factory", I would call the factory again and talk to somebody else and see if I got a different opinion. I've never heard of such a warning in later K frames, except maybe model 12's or something.

The widely disseminated story is that S&W issued a warning sometime in the 1960's that pre-model K frames (made before S&W's had model numbers, and model numbers started somewhere around '57) weren't supposed to be used with +P ammo. The grade of steel supposedly went up in quality by the late 1950's or early 1960's, so anything made afterwards should be fine. Like I said, this is the "widely disseminated story," so that doesn't prove it's true, but I know an awful lot of very knowledgeable Smith collectors who abide by it.

So it's possible that S&W has changed their criteria for what guns can shoot +P, and it's also possible that a person at the factory has been misinformed or is just wrong. A call back would help determine that. It doesn't matter so much for me - I have S&W pinned revolvers, and I don't shoot most of them that much with any ammo, let alone +P. Some people need to know, though, mostly for their own piece of mind. I'm confident these guns can handle +P.

In fact, I think that even pre-model K frames can handle a moderate amount of modern +P, if they're in good condition. Same with pinned barrel J frames...though I wouldn't want to guess about pre-model J frames. I know I've fired +P through these older guns I've mentioned without ill effect. And I think someone on this forum - several years ago - fired 1000 rounds of +P through an old model 12 without any ill effect (Anyone else remember that?)