What would be the SAO or DA/SA equivalent of the P-238?

Plan2live writes:

I have an LCP Custom. After I chamber a round the hammer is down. When I pull the trigger it cocks the hammer then releases it. That is the definition of Double Action. When the slide cycles the hammer returns to the down position so on the next shot the trigger has to cock the hammer and release the hammer, just like a revolver with an exposed hammer.

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The LCP and P3-AT are what's known as "pre-set" DAO pistols. No, the hammer is not completely at rest when the slide is cycled; it's partially cocked. Pulling the trigger takes it the rest of the way to the rear, then releases it. The only time it's completely at rest is when the trigger is pulled without the gun firing. Then, the slide must be at least partially cycled to re-set it. This is not the case with a double-action revolver, which can be repeatedly dry-fired without any other manipulation.

The forensics report on the particular Kel-Tec PF9 used in a high-profile defensive shooting in central Florida refers to it as a "hybrid-double-action" (the PF9 has the same manner of operation as the P3-AT.)

kokapelli said:

I don't think you can call the LCP and P3AT triggers "DAO" triggers.

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How are they NOT a DAO trigger? The trigger stroke provides 2 functions - double action - meaning it cocks the hammer and breaks the sear.

The partial cock provided by the recoil assist design and the fact you aren't able to repeat on a misfire are specific design considerations, but they do not negate the double action design feature - pulling the trigger on an LCP performs 2 actions.

Ruger used to define it as a "recoil assisted DAO," which is exactly what it is. The recoil operation partially assists cocking, to shorten the trigger stroke and reduce pull weight. The trigger still performs 2 actions, hence, DAO.

To the OP's desire for a suitable pocket carry option, instead of a new gun, I'd much sooner suggest a pocket holster. Safety and risk of a pocket ND is one thing, but the speed of deployment is another. A pocket holster will ensure consistent orientation and positioning in the event of a defensive draw, which could be worth your life. I recall the last time I pocket carried without a holster - when I reached into my pocket, NOT in a defensive situation, the pistol was completely upside down, so my palm found the muzzle, not the grip. Had it been a life or death situation, I would have most likely lost. All for the price of a $30 pocket holster.

I too, am in need of a pocket holster for my P- nine thirty eight. As I am a carpenter I like hammers. The safety on mine is positive to the point of almost stiff. I have no qualms with it in a pocket, other than condensation and disorientation. (The gun, my sense of direction is keen...ish.)

Plan2Live said:

Hokkmike asked "Is there a pistol, likely a .380, that in your opinion fits the bill as a SAO or DA/SA equivalent of the p-238?"

As for SAO, if I read the intent of your post correctly I think you meant DAO ...

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The OP hasn't commented on this point, but he did say SAO, and if so the SIG P-238 is SAO. If as suspected by Plan2Live (and most of us), he really meant DAO, it would be helpful if he would clarify his point, since most of the answers don't answer his request as written.

First choice P-232 beretta 85 close runner up.

I'm racking my brains but cannot come up with a small enough DA/SA. Beretta 84/85, Girsan/Chiappa MC 14, SIG P232, or Mak Izh-70 are all pretty large and heavy.

It he's really that dead-set on carrying a .380 without a pocket holster, he should be carrying Taurus M380 UL.

I recently went looking for a PPK to upgrade and replace my Bersa. I was disappointed with the heavy trigger pull on the PPK and discovered that they had a Sig p232 available. I had been looking for one with no luck. It wasn't cheap, but it came home with me. Nice trigger and smoothest shooting .380 I have tried. It will be in my carry rotation with the LCR and 642 wheel guns. This choice solves the original poster's preference of the DA/SA option. It also has a nice decocker function.

Striker fired guns are really a different animal from the typical world of revolvers (single action and double action or DAO) and the semi-auto world of Traditional Double Action (TDA) DA/SA guns and single action autos.

While there certainly are exceptions, I consider most striker fired semi-autos closer to single action semi-autos rather than DA/SA or DAO semi-autos.

Hokkmike said:

That being said I am beginning to understand that I truly do not understand the difference between DAO and striker fired.

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I recently posted this Ernest Langdon Beretta 92 video in another thread. At about the 2:00 mark he starts talking about how to carry a Beretta 92FS and the Glock (it really could be any striker fired gun) comparison comes up. His observations may be helpful to your understanding.

It's really not so complicated. "Double Action Only": the only part is easy, that means it only operates as double action. The double action part is easy too - it means the trigger stroke performs two actions.

For a hammer fire handgun, those two actions are cocking the hammer and breaking the sear. For a striker fire pistol, those two actions are cocking the striker, and breaking the sear.

Now... Why folks get confused.... Recoil assist...

"But striker fire guns feel more like an SAO because they have a shorter trigger travel," or other folks might say, "but I can repeat my hammer fall on a DA revolver and I can't on my striker pistol." So then these folks lead others astray by stating striker pistols aren't really DAO. This happens because the FCG design relies upon the slide's recoil operation to partially cock the striker, and the trigger only finishes the job.

But they are - the Only way they operate is for the trigger to perform two (Double) Actions.

The Ruger LCP (not LCP II) and LC9/380 operate the same way, but with a recoil assisted hammer instead of a striker. The slide partially cocks the hammer, then the trigger stroke finishes the job upon firing.

It's really that simple. If the trigger has two jobs, it's a double action, if it can ONLY operate in that manner, then it's a DAO.

Seecamp 380, also...

Hokkmike said:

You and Plan2Live are right - I did mean DAO.

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I re-read the original message in light of this revelation, and it appears that you want a small, or about P238 sized, pistol that fits in a pocket, but is more shootable than Bodyguard. And it needs to be ready to fire without disengaging the safety.

If so, it's a common set of parameters, and the answer is well known.

First, look at Glock 42. It's by far the best shooting, it's reliable, etc. etc. It's main downfall is that it's borderline too large. See if you can fit it in your pocket. Some people can, some cannot. It rides well in my pockets in PJ Kydex holster with a hook.

If you cannot fit Glock 42, look at Ruger LCP II, unless you really-really need night sights, in which case consider Kahr CW380.

There's a bunch of other guns, but they lose in some parameters, sometimes several. For example RM380 has a trigger pull that's even longer than Kahr's. Seecamp in .380 isn't going to be very shootable at all. Honestly, I have my hands full with it in .32, haha (get it?).

What you are trying to find is a Colt Pony (it is a DAO pistol made until the late 90's) Something to do with a patent infringment. If you can find one they should be about 6 - 800. Had one once and it was a great gun. Let son talk me out of it. Dumb move on m part

Kel-Tec pistols are all DAO. I've had mixed luck with them -- a P32 that has been trouble-free and a PF9 that was one headache after another.

As somebody said upthread, the Seecamps are DAO, but shooting a Seecamp .380 is nothing like shooting a P238. It smarts.

I have pocket-carried the SIG P238, Kel-Tec P32, Seecamp .25, and Glock 42 extensively. I have no qualms about any of them. A pocket-carry pistol should be carried in a good-quality holster, should be the only thing in the pocket it's carried in, and shouldn't be messed with idly. For holsters, I like the DeSantis Nemesis or the stiff leather Galco holsters -- no neoprene for me: too floppy.

The solution is a good pocket holster. I have found that the BORAII holsters work very well. My wife's P238 has one, and she can carry cocked and locked in pocket and purse. This holster securely covers the trigger guard.

I also have them for my Kahr PM9 w/CT, Kel-Tec P32, Springfield XDs .45, and S&W 442.

http://www.boraii.com/

Hokkmike said:

Thanks for the recommendation.

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If you're on to pocket holster recommendations, here's another

Aholster http://www.lefthandholster.com/home-1.html

I don't think the Remington RM380 has been mentioned.

The Remington RM380 is DAO and a real pleasure to shoot. I think they have dropped in price and there is/was a $50 rebate. I prefer DAO for pocket carry and yes, in a pocket holster. I will carry the P238 cocked and locked but not in my pocket.

Not quite the equivalent, but I think the XDe is the smallest DA/SA pistol right now.

And the XDE is not small by any standard, based on the specs I've seen. It's pretty much the same size as a Sig P239 is it not, only lighter by a bit?

XDE - 5" x 6.75" x 1" and 25 oz.
239 - 5.1" x 6.6" x 1.1" and 29 oz.