Captains1911
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I want to submit a Form 1 for an SBR as an Individual, but I can only seem to find instructions on how to do it as a Trust. If somebody can point me in the right direction I would appreciate it.
Form 1 Application for Individual
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pjeski
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Did you look at the instructions on the form?
Captains1911
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Of course I did. Thanks for the reply, you have been most helpful.
Arizona_Mike
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If only that was sufficient. There are lots of ambiguities like what is allowed for caliber, what fields to fill out vs. leave blank when rolling your own prints, etc. I once had Form 1s returned after almost 12 mo for having Trust Name c/o Me in the mailing address. They take their legal fictions very seriously. There were a lot of useful comprehensive guides on line pre-41T and I suspect the OP was looking for an updated guide.
Mike
I don't think he was being sarcastic I think he was asking the initial question because a lot of people don't. Kind of like the lengthy sticky in this section most people don't read before hand either.
What particular part are you not sure on? Aside from putting your name instead of the Trust name and engraving your name instead of the Trust name you should fill out the information about the firearm and everything else the same way.
Captains1911
Member
I was directed to a guide on another forum that was very helpful.
One part I was unsure of is Part 4h...am I supposed to indicate what I intend to engrave on the receiver? Regarding the engraving, do I need to engrave my full name as it appears in part 3b (including middle name), or can I just engrave my first initial and last name?
I'm also a little unclear on Part 4j...consensus is to leave it blank for an SBR, even though the form reads "check one box."
Lastly, on Part 15, since I'm doing an Individual, do I leave this blank, or put "0". (Silencershop put "0" on the last Form 4 they completed for me).
One part I was unsure of is Part 4h...am I supposed to indicate what I intend to engrave on the receiver? Regarding the engraving, do I need to engrave my full name as it appears in part 3b (including middle name), or can I just engrave my first initial and last name?
I'm also a little unclear on Part 4j...consensus is to leave it blank for an SBR, even though the form reads "check one box."
Lastly, on Part 15, since I'm doing an Individual, do I leave this blank, or put "0". (Silencershop put "0" on the last Form 4 they completed for me).
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pjeski
Member
I've always put the info engraved in 4h.
4j is type of destructive device. A destructive device is a classification of NFA device, which an SBR is not. It wouldn't be valid to check a box
From another forum:
Instruction (2)(d)(2):
If the applicant is an individual, the entire Form 1 shall be completed except for items 15 and 16. In addition, the applicant must include his or her fingerprints on FBI Form FD-258 and his or her photographs (see instruction 2g).
4j is type of destructive device. A destructive device is a classification of NFA device, which an SBR is not. It wouldn't be valid to check a box
From another forum:
Instruction (2)(d)(2):
If the applicant is an individual, the entire Form 1 shall be completed except for items 15 and 16. In addition, the applicant must include his or her fingerprints on FBI Form FD-258 and his or her photographs (see instruction 2g).
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pjeski
Member
What is allowed for caliber isn't an ambiguity, it's a whim.
I believe trust name c/o you is more correct, because as far as I know trusts do not have addresses. (I know mine doesn't).
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forindooruseonly
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I've filled out 2 Form 1s for SBS builds, and this is how I understood it:
Full name is required, however it's listed in the other section. I was expressly told no initials. Your location is also required, so:
"John Smith, Dallas, TX" is the format on mine.
Full name is required, however it's listed in the other section. I was expressly told no initials. Your location is also required, so:
"John Smith, Dallas, TX" is the format on mine.
dogtown tom
Member
Read this thread at AR15.com
BigWaylon has done an excellent job on "how to" fill out the various ATF forms: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_17/465636_Work-In-Progress--new-F1-F4-guide-for-41F-submissions.html
dogtown tom
Member
Not as the transferee. If the trust is the transferee, putting "c/o you" doesn't make sense and isn't kosher with ATF.
Heck, ATF returns Forms 1's and 4's because of omitting "the".........buyers trust was named "The Joe Public NFA Trust", yet they filled out the Form 1/4 with "Joe Public NFA Trust".
Some examiners will send it to the transferor for correction, others will return the entire packet and tell you to resubmit the entire thing.
They sure as heck do.....but it may not be listed on the trust document itself. And I don't know how you would have filled out a Form 1 or Form 4 WITHOUT putting in the address of the trust.
Further, when you go to pick up your NFA toy from a dealer, you'll be required to submit a written statement that certifies under penalty of perjury, that the firearm is being acquired for the use of and will be the property of that business entity, and the name and address of that business entity. (and yes this applies to a trust)
Elkins45
Member
I have eight approved form1s from my trust, seven of which were efiled. When I signed the paper one I signed "First Last, trustee." I did the same with my paper Form 4s for my three commercial cans.
The efiled ones just inserted "First Last" as my electronic signature with no mention of my position within the trust. I don't think the provision even existed to do it another way.
All were approved as submitted.
The efiled ones just inserted "First Last" as my electronic signature with no mention of my position within the trust. I don't think the provision even existed to do it another way.
All were approved as submitted.
pjeski
Member
That is not correct, at least not in my case. I had a very specific conversation with the attorney that drafted my trusts and they (the trusts) do not have an address. As far as the form 4, the instructions state:
To me this shows that the ATF understands that a trust may not have an address.ATF Form 4 Instructions 2.d.(1) said:
If you are referring to the instruction on the 4473:
A trust is a legal entity, but not necessarily a business entity. I would be surprised if any NFA trust would be considered a business entity.ATF Form 4473 said:
A business entity is defined as "an establishment formed to carry on commercial enterprises." (Black's Law Dictionary, but google is full of similar references).
dogtown tom
Member
You misunderstand.
When you (or your dealer filled out the Form 4 they wrote the name of the trust AND IT'S ADDRESS in the section for "transferee". Try leaving that out and see if ATF approves your Form 1 or Form 4.
Whether the trust address must be listed in the trust document is a matter of the state where the trust was drafted.
Yet they won't approve a Form 1 or Form 4 without one.
Don't get hung up on the word "business"....ATF doesn't.
Note that not all corporations, associations or partnerships are formed to carry on a commercial enterprise. ATF holds that "...corporation, company, association, partnership, or other such business entity " includes trusts.
pjeski
Member
When I filled out my form 1s, and my dealers have filled out my form 4s, what we put for the address was the "The address shall be the location within the particular state where the firearm will be maintained for a trust or legal entity." as the instructions state, and not the "address of the trust", which in my case doesn't exist.
What would be put for the address if a trustee in another state wanted to purchase an NFA item for the trust?
I never said they would. I have about 40 stamps. Not one of them has the address of my trust on it. Every one has my address on it.Yet they won't approve a Form 1 or Form 4 without one.
Cite?
dogtown tom
Member
Seriously?
How about since 1968? It's clearly described in the instructions to the Form 4473.
Are you saying that you have never provided the written certification as described in the instructions to Section A to your dealer? If so, he's an idiot.
And then there's this: https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regul...-checks-responsible-persons-effective-july-13
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