US House passed CMP1911 bill

That's good news. At least its a step in the right direction, but agreed there's plenty of time for them to drop the ball between now and when it's all said and done.

kBob said:

Still has to make it through the Senate -kBob

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Ugh.

Would be nice to get my hands on one

All those M1911A1s ..... come on!

Yah, it has still got to get through the Senate, which couldn't pass gas, let alone any meaningful legislation at this point.

HR2810 was passed in the House and sent to the Senate. Section 1064 of the bill terminates the previous 10K per year transfer limit and requires rather than allows the Secretary of Defense to transfer the weapons to the CMP.

"This legislation is yet more evidence, as if it were needed, that the GOP is simply a pawn of the NRA and the corrupt gun industry. It would transfer vast numbers of dangerous, high powered, military assault pistols, capable of being loaded with high capacity clips to criminals across the country, further stoking violence in our cities, violence that falls disproportionately on minorities. We must stand firm against this monstrous act of violence by Republicans. "

- Chuck Schumer, Senate Minority Leader.


(Okay, in fairness, he hasn't said this yet; but does anyone really doubt that, when he does comment, it will be substantially similar? )

Bill releases all the guns, 100,000, with no limits and requires transfer. Since it's part of a National Defense authorization for 2018, it implies it takes affect Oct 1 for the next fiscal year.

Once in the hands of the CMP they inspect, grade, then refurbish the "Trench Grade" guns if they are worth it. Using the Garand process as a model, the collector grade guns go to auction for the highest price, rack grades are made available and it's not to the "general public," as if that has slowed things any in the past. I have no doubt some buyers will purchase them in multiple quantities to flip on gun brokering sites. The large number of those probably won't depress pricing much. Condition and grade will likely be poor in some cases, many are survivors of three arsenal rebuilds with inconsistent assembly as regards source parts - which will earn the name "mixmaster" at best. The most common manufacturer is Remington Rand and Ithaca back in WWII so it will be a forensic chore to discover what came from where.

They will be at least shooter grade and compared to an off shore import at half the price the only thing they offer will be provenance - a real US made US Government marked gun carried and used by a real red blooded American in the service of his country.

Just like me! So, yeah, if the Comptroller General of Finances will allow it at some future time, sure, I'd like to get one. In the meantime I already have a much better .45 for carry and use, and it's not a 1911.

I want this to happen, but I have so little confidence in the Senate at this time . . .

CapnMac said:

I want this to happen, but I have so little confidence in the Senate at this time . . .

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Wisdom overpowering optimism.

CapnMac said:

I want this to happen, but I have so little confidence in the Senate at this time . . .

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I have nothing to add but that I agree.

As one who actually witnessed the last of my branch's 1911s get crated up and sent back to Crane in the early '90s ... I can't find it in myself to believe that I'd want any 1911 that CMP might release. I'd rather have a reproduction 1911 to represent what I was issued for the first half of my military career than any specimen that was sent back after the transition to the M-9 ... I simply am not gonna fork over a grand or so for a beater 1911 that probably spent 40 years at a training base.

RPRNY said:

"This legislation is yet more evidence, as if it were needed, that the GOP is simply a pawn of the NRA and the corrupt gun industry. It would transfer vast numbers of dangerous, high powered, military assault pistols, capable of being loaded with high capacity clips to criminals across the country, further stoking violence in our cities, violence that falls disproportionately on minorities. We must stand firm against this monstrous act of violence by Republicans. "

- Chuck Schumer, Senate Minority Leader.


(Okay, in fairness, he hasn't said this yet; but does anyone really doubt that, when he does comment, it will be substantially similar? )

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Won't someone think about the children?!??!?!!

Old Dog said:

As one who actually witnessed the last of my branch's 1911s get crated up and sent back to Crane in the early '90s ... I can't find it in myself to believe that I'd want any 1911 that CMP might release. I'd rather have a reproduction 1911 to represent what I was issued for the first half of my military career than any specimen that was sent back after the transition to the M-9 ... I simply am not gonna fork over a grand or so for a beater 1911 that probably spent 40 years at a training base.

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I'm not a military man, but that mirrors my feelings.

My wallet is not interested in $1k+ rattletraps...

...but I'd rather the CMP get them than Cap'n Crunch.

kBob said:

I love the way folks have decided these guns will be offered at $1000. I also love the way folks assume they will all be "rattle traps" or shot out junk.

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It's based on exactly what the CMP has done with Garands in the past.

Many of the 1911's which were put into storage years ago were drawn out and sent to the scrappers under Clinton. Hundreds of thousands were turned into tiny inoperative bits, along with M14's, which became desireable later as an expedient long range rifle in Afghanistan. Few got over there and even fewer were used.

What the condition of that fleet of 1911's was in was well known - they have been kicking around since, um, oh, about 1911. Most were built in the 1940s, and a large number of the total fleet were rebuilt at least once. The Army even had Pistol Trials in 1954 to replace it with a "Commander" sized 9mm with DA/SA action like the P38. All that came to a stop when it was realized that it would be expensive to buy more guns when over 2.3 million were still in inventory. It was post WWII and Korea was more important.

We soldiered on with that fleet of guns until 1984. They got rebuilt again, some for the third time, and each rebuild at arsenal level disassembles the gun, separates the parts, which are inspected as a batch tray, the worn and broken ones discarded, a few remedial operations performed on the more expensive ones, and then reassembled - which is a gunsmith level operation requiring the correct filing of trigger parts to get safe operation. Not at all like an M16 - hand fitting is required. Why weren't those parts made to print? Well during the war years it was discovered that prints weren't often available - companies rushed into production in the teens, and craftsmanship in the production line was highly variable, too. It's one reason so few Singers met spec and thousands of others were scrapped. And those were manufactured by a sewing machine company. How hard was it to do? Apparently too hard for even their capability.

So we had a fleet of guns with at least one arsenal rebuild if not three under their belt, WWII service, Korea service, Vietnam service, and in heavy use in training units. A lot may have been in NG and Army Reserve units just sitting in racks - we had a Union Switch and Railway - but for the most part we don't know which ones are in storage now. Did the Army push the worst graded ones into the mulcher or did a Property Book Officer just pick the crates by priority of need - ie his fork lift operators wanting those spots to use? At best the 100,000 left will be the wide assortment we could see in any armory, some beaters, some highly collectible, some near mint but run of the mill Remington's or Ithaca's.

And they will go thru the same hands at CMP who will determine their valuation, having already done so with tens of thousands of Garands. Why change what they know works? Good ones went to auction, the rack grade guns were put on the sales floor. At what pricing? Just under what we see them getting flipped for on GunBroker and other sites.

There is some justification in making the statements, we have no reason to think the 1911's will be treated any differently than the Garands. And because of the long drawn out process and pricing, some of us moved on. We took advantage of the market to buy other guns in .45 for half the potential cost of a CMP 1911. They are copies made overseas with cast frames but not bad ones. Other choices have been LEO turnins from departments changing their fleet of weapons as age and improvements become available. I took advantage of that market and paid $450 for one of those - a 4" DA/SA single stack made in America gun, by a maker who submitted to the 1954 Pistol trials.

It could have been the successor. It certainly was a better bargain in all stainless, holster wear only, and it shoots! Now, what does a stainless 4" Commander style 1911 run on the market? Not even close. And a CMP 1911 with marked arsenal rebuilds with a mix of parts made by an obsolete typewriter manufacturer, shotgun maker, and surplus barrel? Well speculation says if it can be shipped to your FFL when you pick it out over the internet, $750 up. That's what they sell for the open market.

probaly going to be high.

RPRNY said:

"This legislation is yet more evidence, as if it were needed, that the GOP is simply a pawn of the NRA and the corrupt gun industry. It would transfer vast numbers of dangerous, high powered, military assault pistols, capable of being loaded with high capacity clips to criminals across the country, further stoking violence in our cities, violence that falls disproportionately on minorities. We must stand firm against this monstrous act of violence by Republicans. "

- Chuck Schumer, Senate Minority Leader.


(Okay, in fairness, he hasn't said this yet; but does anyone really doubt that, when he does comment, it will be substantially similar? )

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Yea and that will be mild compared to Tim the Clown Kaine

I wonder what happened to the Colt ACE 22lr pistols that were at Navy Boot Camps back in the day? We fired 5 whole rounds out of a Colt ACE to familiarize with the 1911 prior to going to the Fleet or school. Wonder if they were scrapped and "crunched"...

When I was an armorer in the Army many years ago, the 1911 pistol I used in service matches was S/N SM11131. The SM stood for “Service Match”. As I recall, it had a Remington slide on it.
Apparently, one of the .22 match pistols had gone through an arsenal rebuild at some point and converted to .45. I worked the trigger over and didn’t do anything else. That little gun was quite accurate and shot right on the sights at 20-25 yds. I earned all my LEG points with it.
I shot various other 1911s in qualification and never had any trouble with accuracy. The guys who claimed 1911s were inaccurate were the ones who were afraid of the guns and couldn’t handle the trivial recoil.
Those were and are good guns. I’d buy one if the price was right.

I’d pay plenty for SM11131.

Tirod said:

It's based on exactly what the CMP has done with Garands in the past.

Many of the 1911's which were put into storage years ago were drawn out and sent to the scrappers under Clinton. Hundreds of thousands were turned into tiny inoperative bits, along with M14's, which became desireable later as an expedient long range rifle in Afghanistan. Few got over there and even fewer were used.

What the condition of that fleet of 1911's was in was well known - they have been kicking around since, um, oh, about 1911. Most were built in the 1940s, and a large number of the total fleet were rebuilt at least once. The Army even had Pistol Trials in 1954 to replace it with a "Commander" sized 9mm with DA/SA action like the P38. All that came to a stop when it was realized that it would be expensive to buy more guns when over 2.3 million were still in inventory. It was post WWII and Korea was more important.

We soldiered on with that fleet of guns until 1984. They got rebuilt again, some for the third time, and each rebuild at arsenal level disassembles the gun, separates the parts, which are inspected as a batch tray, the worn and broken ones discarded, a few remedial operations performed on the more expensive ones, and then reassembled - which is a gunsmith level operation requiring the correct filing of trigger parts to get safe operation. Not at all like an M16 - hand fitting is required. Why weren't those parts made to print? Well during the war years it was discovered that prints weren't often available - companies rushed into production in the teens, and craftsmanship in the production line was highly variable, too. It's one reason so few Singers met spec and thousands of others were scrapped. And those were manufactured by a sewing machine company. How hard was it to do? Apparently too hard for even their capability.

So we had a fleet of guns with at least one arsenal rebuild if not three under their belt, WWII service, Korea service, Vietnam service, and in heavy use in training units. A lot may have been in NG and Army Reserve units just sitting in racks - we had a Union Switch and Railway - but for the most part we don't know which ones are in storage now. Did the Army push the worst graded ones into the mulcher or did a Property Book Officer just pick the crates by priority of need - ie his fork lift operators wanting those spots to use? At best the 100,000 left will be the wide assortment we could see in any armory, some beaters, some highly collectible, some near mint but run of the mill Remington's or Ithaca's.

And they will go thru the same hands at CMP who will determine their valuation, having already done so with tens of thousands of Garands. Why change what they know works? Good ones went to auction, the rack grade guns were put on the sales floor. At what pricing? Just under what we see them getting flipped for on GunBroker and other sites.

There is some justification in making the statements, we have no reason to think the 1911's will be treated any differently than the Garands. And because of the long drawn out process and pricing, some of us moved on. We took advantage of the market to buy other guns in .45 for half the potential cost of a CMP 1911. They are copies made overseas with cast frames but not bad ones. Other choices have been LEO turnins from departments changing their fleet of weapons as age and improvements become available. I took advantage of that market and paid $450 for one of those - a 4" DA/SA single stack made in America gun, by a maker who submitted to the 1954 Pistol trials.

It could have been the successor. It certainly was a better bargain in all stainless, holster wear only, and it shoots! Now, what does a stainless 4" Commander style 1911 run on the market? Not even close. And a CMP 1911 with marked arsenal rebuilds with a mix of parts made by an obsolete typewriter manufacturer, shotgun maker, and surplus barrel? Well speculation says if it can be shipped to your FFL when you pick it out over the internet, $750 up. That's what they sell for the open market.

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You have made a well reasoned and presented argument for why these pistols make no sense, practically or financially. But, IMHO, this misses the point. Anyone who buys one of these (excepting the flippers, of course), is not expecting a MOA 100% reliable CCW pistol, but, rather a tangible link to US history and the great Americans who fought, bled, and won with these arms from Château-Thiery to Baghdad. Each rust pit, scratch, and ding tells a story of its service. I've had my own kids and even Millenials I work with listen, actually listen, to that story when you hand them an old, battered milsurp and let them feel the weight of history attached to it. In this digital age, that alone is a wonder to see. For a grand? I'm in.

(Sigh) And this is why I'm lined up to buy one too. Of course, if is just set up the search fields on an auction site I could do that Right Now, instead of waiting to see what the CMP will offer as a rack grade gun playing 1911 roulette. And that is very much the point - no, these aren't overaccurized target shooters, the 1911 never was. It was cheap to modify in the heyday of competition handgunning on ranges, the same reason so many run Chevy smallblocks to this day in hobby racing circles. It does take a lot of modification to get either to perform at high levels, but the volume of sales for those parts keeps the prices down.

If I could be assured of getting a rack 1911 that would shoot as well as the one I qualified with I'd be happy, the 4566TSW I have does it already. That means the ones being offered by the CMP are literally just a collector gun - almost all of us who want a good shooting .45 can get one cheaper sooner than waiting around to see which one falls into our hands. Provenance, sure, I'm already sold - but a good shooter for under $850, no not so much. It won't come with a match barrel, won't be ramped or polished for HP ammo, and you get whatever magazine was on the top of the crate. Trigger - GI. Likely longer than normal pull compared to a tricked out gun and certainly a good safe 6 pounds minimum, with some slack on takeup and your guess is better than mine on how crisp the release. Slide fit will be field ready - to test, dunk in the mud and watch it leak out the rails while you tip it from side to side.

These aren't going to be high end hand fitted guns - they will likely be shooter grade on at least one or two rebuilds, someone's slide on somebody else's frame and you take what you get. And I expect at least half a dozen Singers to show up - which should give anyone who knows 1911's pause, the market will try to pull the wool over new buyers eyes.

Wellll, if the CMP sold it I might consider it just on it's own merits.

kBob said:

I love the way folks have decided these guns will be offered at $1000. I also love the way folks assume they will all be "rattle traps" or shot out junk.

Look, if you don't want one, don't buy one. All the B,M,& C-ing about something we don't know yet is annoying.

Meanwhile if there are folks willing to pay $1000 to the CMP that can be used to keep things running there, more power to them.

-kBob

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add to that the condescending attitude of certain members professing to have vast superior knowledge, whom enjoy postulating