Loading 9mm 124 gr. RMR MP-HP for XD9

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santacruzdave

santacruzdave

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I'm relatively new to reloading and have a question regarding powder charge and COL.
I made up some dummy rounds and did a "plunk" test. All normal in most of my 9mm pistols with the exception of the XD-9 Tactical 5". I know from other plunk tests with different bullets that the barrel in the XD has a very short lead. I plan to use BE-86.

The Alliant website shows a max load of 5.9 gr. Doing the calculation -10% for a starting load of 5.3 gr. with a COL of 1.12. And it's the COL that is driving my question. The longest COL the XD will successfully plunk is 1.062. The difference, .058, is what has me concerned. I've been told that the 9mm is a high pressure cartridge and any significant reduction in the "boiler room" could lead to spikes in pressure and possibly a kaboom. I've also been told that every powder is unique in it's pressure curve and what might work for one would not work for the next.

So I have a dilemma. What would be a reasonable reduction in the minimum load of 5.3 gr of BE-86? Is seating the bullet .058 inches below the minimum COL of 1.12 simply too radical to contemplate? Perhaps I should just skip loading for the XD with the RMR bullet? Thanks in advance for any insight you might offer.
 
Welcome to THR,
lots of great people here.

If in doubt always start low and work up.


If it was me I would start at about 4.2 gr of BE86 and work up. (maybe even less....4.0gr)if you need an OAL of 1.06.
Lots lower than Alliant's MAX - 10%
I haven't tested that bullet at that OAL with BE86 so I am making a guess here, that 4.2 is safe starting point.
Guessing 4.2 gr will be a around 1000fps.

Very worse case for to low a charge is you stick a bullet in the barrel, I doubt that will be a concern with 4 or 4.2gr.
Next would be failures to function, maybe possible at 4.2gr but I doubt it.

Worse case results for to high a charge can be lots worse, damaged gun, damaged body parts or even death.
I would prefer spend my time starting to low and shooting than sitting in an ER.


I think Alliants data for BE86 in 9mm is on the hot side anyway.

Not as short as you need to go and a different bullet but for what it's worth
Time: 2:59:36 PM
Grains: 124
Hi Vel: 1015
Low Vel: 977
Ave Vel: 998
Ext Spread: 38
Std Dev: 14
RMR 124 RN 4.5 BE86 1.09 OAL
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
1005 124.62 278.071
1015 125.86 283.632
1000 124 275.311
977 121.148 262.792
995 123.38 272.565

String: 4
Date: 3/31/2017
Time: 2:57:54 PM
Grains: 124
Hi Vel: 991
Low Vel: 958
Ave Vel: 975
Ext Spread: 33
Std Dev: 15
RMR 124 RN 4.5 BE86 1.11 OAL
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
982 121.768 265.489
991 122.884 270.378
961 119.164 254.255
986 122.264 267.656
958 118.792 252.67

This is a round nose so OAL is longer but going from 1.11 to 1.09 upped the vel an average of about 25fps.

See my post here
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/rmr-jacketed-9mm-124gr-choices.825960/
Post #12
where I did an OAL Test with the HPs and a mild load of WSF that was well below
the listed start charge for a longer OAL.
Quick summary going from 1.08 to 1.04 picked up 35fps, and this was a mild load.
This was with a completely different powder so the results do not apply to BE86 just giving you an example of the difference OAL makes.

Here is the data from Hodgdon for WSF for reference
125 FMJ Winchester WSF 0.355 1.16 4.7 1015 27,700 PSI 5.3 1115 32,700 PSI
At an OAL of 1.16 with an RN they show a start charge 4.7gr at 1015 fps. My start charge in the WSF OAL test was 1.3gr below max for a 124 with a longer OAl.

Be safe, and again welcome to THR.
 
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santacruzdave said:
The Alliant website shows a max load of 5.9 gr. Doing the calculation -10% for a starting load of 5.3 gr. with a COL of 1.12. And it's the COL that is driving my question. The longest COL the XD will successfully plunk is 1.062. The difference, .058, is what has me concerned.
Click to expand...
Most RMR-produced bullets have blunt noses compared to anything else, requiring a shorter OALs to chamber. The 124gr. 'MP' HP requires a OAL of ~1.03" to chamber in a SAAMI-minimum 9mm luger chamber. What that means is that if you have no leade (the bevel on the start of the bore), you can't load longer than 1.03" or the bullet will hit the bore surface, possibly preventing the round from fully chambering as well as driving up pressures in an unpredictable fashion. If appears your barrel has a moderate leade and as such will chamber a little longer. My P10C is similar, with 1.06" being the longest practical length for this projectile.

This is the nature of published 9mm load data - it nearly always uses components that if purchased would exceed the cost of excellent factory ammo, and as such it's common to find data that's too hot for your real-world choices. When I worked up my initial loads with this bullet I set the OAL at 1.03" to gauge exactly what you are concerned with. I found, at least compared to the Hodgdon load data for the powder I'm using, that even a 1.03" OAL did not produce elevated pressures. I started at the recommended start charge and was able to work up to the published max with velocity and pressure in line with their data. The OAL of the published data used a Speer Gold Dot HP at 1.125", a pointier design.

From Dudedog's data it looks like you can start really low, but if this is desirable I don't think it's inherent in this bullet's required OAL. The blunt shape increases the bearing surface area but decreases the bullet's length, making a shorter OAL not only workable but necessary. You can always increase the charge if you get a weak pop and/or slide velocity problems. If you don't have a chronograph consider one as they don't cost much these days and make sorting out these dilemmas much easier.
 
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I consider myself a new reloader and maybe wrong on the way I do things but it has worked for me for a number of years.

If I got a push test of 1.062 I would seat my bullets to 1.05 so the bullet isn't up against the rifling. Then I will ratio the powder down from the starting and max load from the data to give me my window. Then I run test loads from the starting load to .10 of a grain short of max. I have always found the sweet spot before I reach a max load.
 
I found that those bullets with a much longer COAL (1.125") hit 1133 fps with 5.3 gr of BE-86. It was pretty spanky even at 1133 fps.

I even got 1091 fps at 5.0gr of BE-86, but it was still a bit spanky and was hitting a Power Factor of almost 134.

Remember, these are at a COAL of 1.125", so if you are going down to 1.06", you are going to be hitting higher numbers than this.

I also tested loads down to 4.8 GR and 4.9 GR that I really liked, but that data is on my other computer. I will see if I can dig it up. I was aiming for Minor Power Factor of 125 plus a safety margin, so somewhere in the 128-130 PF range. Both of these loads were a little too hot for me.

I have heard that these bullets like to be shot in the 1,200 - 1,250 fps range, but those speeds are just too hot for my tastes. YMMV.

Here is the data for these two loads through a SIG P226 with a 4.4" barrel:

Bullet Type: RMR JHP
Bullet Weight: 124
Powder: BE-86
Weight: 5.3
COAL: 1.125
Primer: CCI 500
Case: Federal

Stats - Average 1133.51 fps
Stats - Highest 1152.44 fps
Stats - Lowest 1108.57 fps
Stats - Ext. Spread 43.86 fps
Stats - Std. Dev 14.57 fps
Avg Power Factor 137.21

----

Bullet Type: RMR JHP
Bullet Weight: 124
Powder: BE-86
Weight: 5.0
COAL: 1.125
Primer: CCI 500
Case: R-P

Stats - Average 1091.40 fps
Stats - Highest 1112.00 fps
Stats - Lowest 1069.00 fps
Stats - Ext. Spread 43.00 fps
Stats - Std. Dev 14.50 fps
Avg Power Factor 133.56
 
You are very wise to ask. This way you can learn and grow in reloading.

All good responses above. I would only add...

• Yes, RMR bullets are very blunt when compared to their competitors. In a short freebore chamber, such as yours, there will be a substantially shortened OAL to allow their use.

• You are correct to be concerned with increased chamber pressure. Most everything we do in reloading is to control chamber pressure. Accuracy is a distant second place when compared to concern about chamber pressure. And we always err toward safety.

• In reloading high pressure cartridges, we don't really care about the OAL... it just happens to be the only convenient thing to measure. So we really "make due" with OAL measurements. What really matters is the position of the bullet's base. Deep bullet "seating depths" are what increase the chamber pressure. We can't see it, but we can calculate it.

• The bluntness of the RMR also means that the bullet length is somewhat shorter than, say, a slender Berry Mfg bullet of the same weight. That means for the same OAL, the RMR will not be seated quite as deeply... which will tend to moderate the chamber pressure.

• Still, all things considered, even starting with 5.3gr may not be enough. You may wish to start with 6 to 8 rounds at 5.1gr just for the sake of safety. That reduction may/may not be necessary. Firing 3 rounds may prove them under-powered, in which case you only have 5 to disassemble. The only thing for certain is this: To discover the WORST POSSIBLE load, simply load up 200 cartridges ! :D

• Suggested increments with 6-8 rounds each might be: 5.1, 5.3, 5.5, 5.6 and 5.7gr. Always start low and work up.

• So how can you tell what the good, safe load range is at the new OAL ?
a) The optimal way is by using a chronograph to compare your bullet's speed to other documented 124gr bullets propelled with BE-86.
b) Without a chrono, you can make an educated guess by looking at the distance the brass case is ejected. Around 6-7 feet is normal. Shorter is under-powered; longer is over powered. Go by how other ammo operates in your pistol.

• Most importantly, keep notes of all the details in your reloading notebook.

Hope this helps.
 
Last edited:
Doublehelix said:
I found that those bullets with a much longer COAL (1.125") hit 1133 fps with 5.3 gr of BE-86.
Click to expand...
Are you sure that isn't the earlier (and pointier) RMR HP? The latest one, the one advertised as 'multipurpose' has a much blunter profile. I know they won't chamber at 1.125" in any of my guns.
 
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Many thanks to those who have replied. I'm going to err on the side of safety and download starting at 4.4 gr. and loading up by .2 gr to 5.0. I have a chronograph so I figure 10 rounds at each step of the ladder for the initial test. My target is to make minor with a margin for error. So I figure 1050 fps equals a PF of 130, that should do the trick. Range day Sunday or Monday.
 
ray15 said:
Are you sure that isn't the earlier (and pointier) RMR HP? The latest one, the one advertised as 'multipurpose' has a much blunter profile. I know they won't chamber at 1.125" in any of my guns.
Click to expand...

Yeah, believe it or not, these chamber and fie well in my SIG P226 Legion SAO. They will not chamber in any of my other 9mm guns (HK VP9, SIG P938, etc.) so I am working up some new loads that will chamber in all of my guns. The problem is that these shoot so well already in the P226, I hate to mess with them, but alas, I do not want to have 2 different loadings of the same bullet in the same caliber. I am going to work on some plunk tests today if I can get down to the bench (wife has a long honey-do list for the weekend). Going to check 1.08" and 1.06", etc. until I find a load that reliably plunks in all of my guns (along with a safety margin, obviously), and then work up some new loads.

<Sigh> A handloader's work is never done!
 
Dug up some more data,
This is for the RMR FN FMJ with does not have as much bearing surface as the 124 MPR HP.
String: 4
Date: 7/23/2017
Time: 10:27:10 AM
Grains: 124
Hi Vel: 1011
Low Vel: 956
Ave Vel: 985.8
Ext Spread: 55
Std Dev: 22
RMR 124 FN FMJ 4.6 BE86 1.09 OAL
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
956 118.544 251.705
977 112.964 262.885
1011 125.364 281.401
981 121.644 264.948
1004 124.496 277.616

Charges were as thrown, I think the charge on round 1 was maybe a bit light (-.1 to -.2) so if you threw it out that would make the average around 990.
If you are after a minor PF load I would imagine it would fall some where between 4.4-4.8gr of BE86.
Just for fun I will make a guess and say 4.4 will put you at 125 PF about 1015 fps and 4.6 will be about 1040ish which give you your wiggle room on making minor PF.:)
Will see when you chrono if I am having a good day guessing day or not.

I had a couple different lots of BE86. The first can (shortly after it was released) I had honestly seemed close to 7-10% hotter than the 2nd jar from a different lot.
 
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I'm feeling much more confident after comparing bullet lengths of the RMR MP-HP and two Hornady 124 and 125 grain bullets in my inventory. I measured the length of a few of each and the results are: RMR MP-HP .555, Hornady XTP 124 gr .5764 and Hornady HAP 125 gr. at .5753. Next I referenced the loads for the Hornady projectiles in the 9th edition of the Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading. And much to my surprise the COL hornady specifies for the XTP (no listing for the HAP) is 1.060. I also have some Freedom Munitions 9mm loaded with the Hornady 124 gr XTP projectile. That cartridge measures 1.053. So with this new information, I'm feeling much better about loading for the Springfield XD9 at a COL of 1.060. The 9th edition does not have any listings for Alliant BE-86. So I'll still be downloading and working up to a target velocity of 1050 fps. I plan to get to the range early this coming week. I'll post results here.
 
Feel even more comfortable that for my G23 Lone Wolf 40-9 conversion barrel with no leade, I load RMR 124 gr MPR to 1.040" - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/rmr-124-mpr-jhp-oal.825436/#post-10626094

index.php
 
These bullets were tested in a SAAMI spec pressure test barrel. That barrel allowed them to be seated out to 1.06". If you are using 1.06" as your OAL be aware that you will be at 38,000 psi with 5.7 grains of BE86. Thats right there at max load. If I were you, I would stick with 5.0-5.6 grains of be-86 and work up from there. There isn't anything wrong with going into +P if you want to run them that hot, but there isn't any reason. With 5.7 grains of BE86 they were shooting right at 1240 fps from a 4.5" test barrel. That's way more velocity than you need to enjoy these bullets.

ray15 said:
Most RMR-produced bullets have blunt noses compared to anything else, requiring a shorter OALs to chamber. The 124gr. 'MP' HP requires a OAL of ~1.03" to chamber in a SAAMI-minimum 9mm luger chamber. What that means is that if you have no leade (the bevel on the start of the bore), you can't load longer than 1.03" or the bullet will hit the bore surface, possibly preventing the round from fully chambering as well as driving up pressures in an unpredictable fashion. If appears your barrel has a moderate leade and as such will chamber a little longer. My P10C is similar, with 1.06" being the longest practical length for this projectile.

This is the nature of published 9mm load data - it nearly always uses components that if purchased would exceed the cost of excellent factory ammo, and as such it's common to find data that's too hot for your real-world choices. When I worked up my initial loads with this bullet I set the OAL at 1.03" to gauge exactly what you are concerned with. I found, at least compared to the Hodgdon load data for the powder I'm using, that even a 1.03" OAL did not produce elevated pressures. I started at the recommended start charge and was able to work up to the published max with velocity and pressure in line with their data. The OAL of the published data used a Speer Gold Dot HP at 1.125", a pointier design.

From Dudedog's data it looks like you can start really low, but if this is desirable I don't think it's inherent in this bullet's required OAL. The blunt shape increases the bearing surface area but decreases the bullet's length, making a shorter OAL not only workable but necessary. You can always increase the charge if you get a weak pop and/or slide velocity problems. If you don't have a chronograph consider one as they don't cost much these days and make sorting out these dilemmas much easier.
Click to expand...
 
Quoting bds:
"RMR 124 gr MPR JHP averages 0.558" in length and I need to seat them to 1.040" OAL (see round on the right of picture) to fully chamber in my Lone Wolf barrel with almost no leade.
- 1.125" fully chambered in older Lone Wolf barrels (with longer leade)
- 1.120" fully chambered in KKM barrel
- 1.040" fully chambered in newer Lone Wolf barrel (with almost no leade)
At 1.030" OAL, 4.2 gr charge of W231/HP-38 is max powder fill for 0.558" length bullet:
1.030" - 0.558" = .472" Max case fill
My resized cases averaged .750" so I measured .278" (.750" - .472" = .278") down from case mouth and marked the inside of case.
When I filled the case with W231/HP-38 to the mark and weighed the charge, it was 4.2 gr."

bds,
Will this formula work to tell me the MAX gr powder fill for any powder?
I am working up loads for the RMR 124 gr MPR JHP and will be trying several powders.

So, taking your example, if I measure down from case mouth 0.278", mark the inside of case,
then fill the case with XYZ Powder to the mark and weigh the charge, would this then be my
max powder fill for XYZ Powder per the bullet and brass in your example?

I would then reference published data to find the START/MAX charge for XYZ Powder and work up my loads.

I am loading for a Springfield 9MM XDs which has almost no leade, so the data I have successfully
worked up for my SIG M11-A1 9MM (with generous leade) are to long to plunk in the XDs.
Don't want to run into a compressed powder situation by just adjusting the COL shorter to fit the XDs.

Thank you!
JD
 
Yes, especially when using different profile bullet or deeper seating depth than published, it's a good method to calculate max case fill vs max published loads to prevent powder compression.

Do keep in mind that with certain fluffy powders like Red Dot, Promo, IMR Red, IMR Target, Unique, IMR Unequal, etc. slightly powder compression may be OK.
 
Finally got out to the range to test some RMR MP-HP and BE-86. I loaded 10 test rounds each, starting 4.4 gr and adding .2 gr stopping at 5.0 gr, with a COL of 1.060 All went bang, all cycled the slide on my XD 9 Tactical 5". All primers looked good, with rounded edges intact. I had some error readings on the Caldwell Chronograph. I'm still getting the hang of using the Caldwell hooked up to my phone. So cool when it works. Seems like when I lowered the chronograph, so most shots went well above the body and closer to the light diffusers, most errors went away. Clouds also seemed to have some effect. Going to work up some additional loads and get back to the range. Most accurate were the 4.4gr loads. So next time I think I'll try starting at 4.5 and stop at 4.9 since the 4.8 loads are producing plenty of velocity for my use (minor with a cushion is the goal). Anyway, I'm grateful for all the comments and info provided by you all. Thanks! Here are my results such as they are:
Created: 09-19-2017 11:55:25 AM
Description: 9mm 5.0 be86
Notes 1: RMR MP-HP
Notes 2: Mixed Range Brass
Distance to Chrono (FT): 12.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight (gr): 124.000
Altitude (FT): 0.0
Temp: 71 °F
BP: 30.07 inHG
Shots
# FPS FT-LBS PF
9 1039 297.28 128.84
8 1075 318.24 133.30
7 1087 325.38 134.79
6 ERROR 3
5 ERROR 3
4 1083 322.99 134.29
3 1055 306.51 130.82
2 1114 341.75 138.14
1 1060 309.42 131.44
Average: 1073.29
StdDev: 24.59
Min: 1039
Max: 1114
Spread: 75
True MV: 1073.29
Shots/sec: 0.33
Group Size (IN): 0.00
==============================
Created: 09-19-2017 11:51:27 AM
Description: 9mm 4.8 be86
Notes 1: RMR MP-HP
Notes 2: Mixed Range Brass
Distance to Chrono (FT): 12.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight (gr): 124.000
Altitude (FT): 0.0
Temp: 72 °F
BP: 30.07 inHG
Shots
# FPS FT-LBS PF
8 1067 313.52 132.31
7 ERROR 3
6 ERROR 2
5 1073 317.06 133.05
4 ERROR 3
3 1051 304.19 130.32
2 1075 318.24 133.30
1 ERROR 2
Average: 1066.50
StdDev: 10.88
Min: 1051
Max: 1075
Spread: 24
True MV: 1066.50
Shots/sec: 0.29
Group Size (IN): 0.00

====================
Created: 09-19-2017 11:46:01 AM
Description: 9mm 4.6 be86
Notes 1: RMR MP-HP
Notes 2: Mixed Range Brass
Distance to Chrono (FT): 12.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight (gr): 124.000
Altitude (FT): 0.0
Temp: 72 °F
BP: 30.07 inHG
Shots
# FPS FT-LBS PF
6 ERROR 3
5 ERROR 3
4 ERROR 3
3 1028 291.02 127.47
2 ERROR 3
1 ERROR 3
Average: 0.00
StdDev: 0.00
Min: 1028
Max: 1028
Spread: 0
True MV: 0.00
Shots/sec: 0.06
Group Size (IN): 0.00

==========================
Created: 09-19-2017 11:40:22 AM
Description: 9mm 4.4 be86
Notes 1: RMR MP-HP
Notes 2: Mixed Range Brass
Distance to Chrono (FT): 12.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight (gr): 124.000
Altitude (FT): 0.0
Temp: 72 °F
BP: 30.07 inHG
Shots
# FPS FT-LBS PF
9 958 252.74 118.79
8 988 268.81 122.51
7 1004 277.59 124.50
6 983 266.10 121.89
5 1002 276.49 124.25
4 969 258.57 120.16
3 1006 278.70 124.74
2 1022 287.63 126.73
1 1017 284.83 126.11
Average: 994.33
StdDev: 21.50
Min: 958
Max: 1022
Spread: 64
True MV: 994.33
Shots/sec: 0.19
Group Size (IN): 0.00
 
Just for fun I will make a guess and say 4.4 will put you at 125 PF about 1015 fps and 4.6 will be about 1040ish which give you your wiggle room on making minor PF.:)
Will see when you chrono if I am having a good day guessing day or not.
Click to expand...
Sigh I wasn't guessing good, must be because you didn't use S+B primers:)
off by 21fps on the 4.4 load and 12 fps on the 4.6 load (of course only one sample at 4.6)

What was the OAL? 1.06?
 
Yup, OAL was 1.06 and some change (.002 - .003), plunked just fine. I just loaded up 20 each of 4.5, 4.7, 4.9, and 5.1, for my next test. All were loaded with S&B primers including the loads I first tested. Getting the hang of using the Cadwell crono, and this time I've loaded enough to get some better readings. Sunny day tomorrow will see me at the range for the next ladder test. Interesting that the best group I shot was the 4.4 gr load. Although I was not shooting for accuracy, other than avoiding hitting the chronograph. Once I settle on a range of loads that reliably produce the power factor I'm after (minor) I'll ditch the crono and shoot for accuracy. Glad I found this site.
 
santacruzdave said:
OAL was 1.06 ... loaded up 20 each of 4.5, 4.7, 4.9, and 5.1 ... Interesting that the best group I shot was the 4.4 gr load.

Once I settle on a range of loads that reliably produce the power factor I'm after (minor) I'll ditch the crono and shoot for accuracy
Click to expand...
Your and Dudedog's data show the need to reduce start charge when using shorter OAL/COL.

Many powders have more than one accuracy node. Only way to identify those nodes is to conduct powder workup and monitor for accuracy trends.
 
Another fun day at the range. Looks like I've found a range of loads that will give me the PF + margin of error I'm looking for. Today I shot 4.5, 4.7, 4.9 and 5.1 gr loads. All with S&B primers and a COL of 1.06. The 4.5 gr loads did not quite make minor consistently. The 4.7 gr loads made minor, but had very little margin.
4.9 gr loads were solid as were the 5.1 gr load.
=========4.9 gr BE-86===================
# FPS FT-LBS PF
10 1065 312.35 132.06
9 1076 318.83 133.42
8 1060 309.42 131.44
7 1040 297.85 128.96
6 1047 301.88 129.83
5 1047 301.88 129.83
4 1064 311.76 131.94
3 1040 297.85 128.96
2 1062 310.59 131.69
1 1071 315.88 132.80
Average: 1057.20
StdDev: 12.83
Min: 1040
Max: 1076
Spread: 36

==============5.1gr BE-86===================
Shots
# FPS FT-LBS PF
10 1112 340.52 137.89
9 1117 343.59 138.51
8 1109 338.69 137.52
7 1087 325.38 134.79
6 1091 327.78 135.28
5 1117 343.59 138.51
4 1103 335.03 136.77
3 1095 330.19 135.78
2 1121 346.06 139.00
1 1098 332.00 136.15
Average: 1105.00
StdDev: 11.94
Min: 1087
Max: 1121
Spread: 34
True MV: 1105.00

So now my plan is to find the most accurate load between 4.9 and 5.1. All primers looked good with rounded edges and from what others have said (and the fact that the published max is 5.7), I could go up a tenth at a time if I can't find an accuracy node in the 4.9 to 5.1 range. This has been quite fun and educational so far. So it's back to the bench for some more loading; 4.9, 5.0, and 5.1 and off to the range to see if they will group.
 
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