What happened to the Sphinx Pistol's popularity?

Status
Not open for further replies.

george burns

Member
Joined
May 26, 2014
Messages
1,849
Location
Sebastion
I thought the Sphinx pistols, were the next big thing about 6-9 months ago, but they seem to have petered out, also dropped a few hundred in price. Is it the weak gun market and the high price that stopped it's forward progress, or did it not deliver the goods?
 
Kriss Arms when belly up. So there is no support or company in Switerland supporting the pistols. Kriss USA bought Sphinx from Kriss Arms as I understand it. So the guns are now made here by Kriss USA. They are being made in Norfolk, VA IIRC. They have not been able to bring the fullsized pistol to market. They also do not have enough marketing power to get them moving IMHO.

Great guns just failed companies behind them.
 
Sphinx were/are superb pistol. However, very expensive with not much difference between the 75B. Therefore, the US market decided by itself. CZ USA grew in pistol and rifle market models giving no room for clones. Lately, i wonder with their actual price list when a compatible clone will step in the market.
 
I would not call the Sphinx a clone. It is a CZ patterned pistol but there are enough differences in their build that they are a different animal. The machining, fit and finish of the Sphinx is superior to CZs in the same price range. The SDPs are not really like the 75B. They are more like the P01 or P07. They are DA/SA guns with decockers and cannot be carried c&l. They are compacts or subcompacts not a full sized gun like the 75B.

I own a Phantom 2 and the machining and finish is not even close to the Sphinx. I love the Phantom 2 and it is a amazing gun but there are some details which are lacking.

I have had long discussions with David of CGW about the Sphinx guns and CZs in general and when looking at getting a Cajunaized P07 vs the Sphinx he recommended getting the Sphinx.

If you want a cheap CZ clone get a Tristar.
 
The Sphinx was the bees knees - I know one long time CZ guy here who swears by Sphinx. I only handled one, years ago, and it was a Swiss watch of a pistol, but the price tag was more than I could afford by a long shot.
 
New Sphinx SDPs are very different than the old hand built race guns and 2000 and 3000s.

Old Guns

714dbecefe84c9b7940386390a4a2583.jpg

New SDPs

sphinxsdpcompact.jpg

Similar concepts but very different execution.

The current talk is that they scraped the fullsized SDP but are brining back the 3000.

image1-660x371.jpg
 
Last edited:
Liked the CZ-like styling and design of the older AT 2000 models (at least the few I had seen); never got too excited by the newer SDP versions.
 
Are they close at all to the original's quality? Walt Sherrill here knows FAR more about Sphinx than I.

They are well made but they changed the production methods so they do not require as much hand fitting. They have hybrid polymer lower on most of the SDP pistols. The grip area is polymer but the rail section is alum. They also had some full steel models which were awesome. I missed that boat because I believed at the time they would continue making them but they did not. The new 3000 will be all steel from what I have read.

They are extremely tight guns. I love mine I just wish the company supporting them was better. Their fit and finish is superior to CZ IMHO. When you look at a sub $1000 Sphinx it is better machined and finished then a $1000+ CZ. My SDPs are better fitting and finished than my Phantom 2. This does not mean they are better than the CZs but there is more attention to detail.
 
The market is saturated with the same design from: Czech Republic (original), and clones from Italy, Israel, Turkey. People who pay attention to detail go the semi-custom 1911 route not trying to get something that goes bang from Switzerland. The exception WAS the SIG 210. This too has been bested by German ones that cost less and in those operating safety does not leave mark on the frame. We all know Germans are better fighters and makers or guns and the Swiss are better bankers and money launderers. The Germans are not the fighters they used to be because like the French they made to trip to Moskva. The french took it while the German patrol reached to point about 15km or was it 15miles? never to get closer. I hope that helped you understand why there was no mob coming to get the Sphinx.
 
Last edited:
The market is saturated with the same design from: Czech Republic (original), and clones from Italy, Israel, Turkey. People who pay attention to detail go the semi-custom 1911 route not trying to get something that goes bang from Switzerland. The exception WAS the SIG 210. This too has been bested by German ones that cost less and in those operating safety does not leave mark on the frame. We all know Germans are better fighters and makers or guns and the Swiss are better bankers and money launderers. The Germans are not the fighters they used to be because like the French they made to trip to Moskva. The french took it while the German patrol reached to point about 15km or was it 15miles? never to get closer. I hope that helped you understand why there was no mob coming to get the Sphinx.

o_O

Honestly I am not sure where this opinion comes from but those who are familiar with the older and the current Sphinx guns would not lump them in with the some of the "clones" which are not really "clones" anymore. The guns from Turkey and Israeli are nowhere even close. Never have been never will be. Some the Witness guns are excellent and are in the ballapark.

If you take a $1000 CZ like a Phantom 2 and compare it to a Sphinx SDP you will see there is a difference in the details and the construction. To say anyone who whats a high level of detail only wants a "Semi-custom" 1911 is absurd. If you really want a functional work of art you bipass the semi-custom world and go with full custom guns from masters like Garthwaite, Yost, Williams and Harrison IMHO. Nothing wrong with a nice 1911 but they are not everyone's cup of tea. The P210 is was a nice pistol but its size and construction limited it usefulness IMHO. Still a gun worth owning if you have the means.

Sphinx USA simply lost momentum because of $$ issues with the parent company in Switzerland. They had huge potential but could not capitalize. The rest of the post is just garbage which has no bearing on the subject of Sphinx pistols but thanks for sharing.The rest of the post is just garbage which has no bearing on the subject of Sphinx pistols but thanks for sharing.
 
I'll agree with WVsig comments above and his analysis of competing guns. I suspect that PabloJ has not owned (and probably NOT shot more than a few rounds through) a Sphinx.
PabloJ said:
"The exception WAS the SIG 210.This too has been bested by German ones that cost less and in those operating safety does not leave mark on the frame.
I'm curious as to which gun now cost less but shoots as well or is as durable as a P-210? I had a P-210-6 that came with a proof target showing a 1.75" five-shot group at 50 meters, roughly 55 yards, and I've seen other such targets with even smaller groups. The P-210 line was/is renowned for its durability, with a large number of them running for years of high round-count use with no parts replaced. The SIG P-210-6, however, wasn't perfect: 1) the factory sights were not the best, 2) the mag held 8-rounds, 3) at the time they cost almost $100 each and there were no after-market mags available, 4) and the European-style mag release on the rear of the grip made for slower mag exchanges.

The SIG P226 X-Five guns come close to matching the P-210 in terms of accuracy, and are fine guns in their own right -- but they aren't cheap, either -- and they are NOT suitable for use as service pistols or for concealed carry -- and the P-210 IS!. (I've had a P-226 X-Five Competition model and it was big and heavy, and it was ONLY a range gun. It was gorgeous.)

I've had several Sphinx 2000-series guns. They were beautifully made and both shot and looked like custom guns -- for the price of a semi-custom gun. (Or for the price of a top-line production gun with a lot of expensive gunsmithing done to it.) I didn't like the high-gloss stainless frames of the 2000 series, but that was a matter of personal preference.

After a hammer-spring change, my Sphinx SDP has a marvelous trigger and a low maintenance slide and frame. Mags aren't cheap (but that's true of many guns), but some cheap alternatives are available if you shop around. My CZ P-07 and Sphinx SDP can swap mags, and both will use Canik Stingray mags with minor thinning to the plastic top of the Canik mag base plate. (I got several of the Stingray mags for $25 each a while back and can use them in either the P-07 or SDP.)

And to make a point that isn't made enough: there aren't any CZ clones any more. The original AT-84 from ITM in Switzerland was a clone, but the AT-84s (I have one) was based on the later Tanfoglio design -- close but not a clone.. Nearly all of the other guns (except the Sphinx) are variants of the Tanfoglio design, and most started out as licensed (from Tanfoglio) models. The Sphinx was it's own design, based on the CZ design, but not a clone. About the only thing any of these guns can share with some CZ models are magazines.
 
They are extremely tight guns. I love mine I just wish the company supporting them was better. Their fit and finish is superior to CZ IMHO. When you look at a sub $1000 Sphinx it is better machined and finished then a $1000+ CZ. My SDPs are better fitting and finished than my Phantom 2. This does not mean they are better than the CZs but there is more attention to detail.

That is the issue. Does the SDP do anything better than P09/P07? From all the reviews I've read it seems it does not.
 
That is the issue. Does the SDP do anything better than P09/P07? From all the reviews I've read it seems it does not.

It has a better out of the box trigger. It is heavier and has superior materials and construction from top to bottom. In my hands it is a superior weapon to the plastic CZs. Again I will defer to Schemeky AKA David Milam of CGW who when asked should I get a Sphinx or a CZ P07 and send it to him for custom work he said get the Sphinx and a spring kit.

Nothing wrong with the P07 IMHO but’s it’s no Sphinx. Clearly YMMV
 
I'm with WVsig. I have both the SDP and an early P-07. The P-07 is a fine weapon, but the Sphinx SDP is better. Is it worth the extra cost? That's up to you and your budget. Me? I'll keep them both. It's YOUR money and your decision to make... but they are NOT the same gun.

The SDP feels like a semi-custom gun in your hand and in how it shoots. It is a better gun than it's price indicates. The P-07 is, in effect a BARGAIN gun that is very similar to the SDP in many ways. And saying BARGAIN is not a criticism of the P-07 -- It's a fine gun available at a great price. But, if you can afford ($) to do a little bit better, the SDP is more than a little bit better.

CZ Custom and Cajun Gun Works offer tuned P-01s that are as refined as the SDP, but they'll likely cost a bit more than the SDP. The P-07 with a lot of Cajun Gun Works parts may suit you better and cost you a good bit less, but I suspect, that if you could shoot them side by side, and could afford it, you'd get the SDP.
 
An SDP is really interesting me. I haven't shot one, but I played with a used one at a LGS, and liked it a lot. I didn't like their price of $699 at all though.
 
when asked should I get a Sphinx or a CZ P07 and send it to him for custom work he said get the Sphinx and a spring kit
I look at Bud's and I see Sphinx for $999 and CZ P09 for $471. I will assume that those prices are representative.

I did not say that P09 is on par with Sphinx when it comes to all the finites you mentioned. What I said is that according to most reviews albeit with more detailed craftmanship, Sphinx does not better CZ P09 where it really matters - reliability and accuracy.

For me it is like with 1911. There will be always market for the high end guns that give you a better feel but still don't do anything better. But that market will be always limited. With CZ not having such a large following in US as 1911 has, Sphinx is a risky bet for the manufacturer.

early P-07
Early P07 was uses plastic that CZ stopped using on its guns and for a good reason. I don't think that it is a fair comparison given that the manufacturer itself considered it unsatisfactory product.

On the other hand, I was shooting new P09 yesterday and I must admit that it does feel cheap. I was thinking about getting one together with PDW conversion, but I am not so sure after yesterday. But that may be because I mainly shoot and carry CZ 75 Stainless with competition hammer (the other carry gun is CZ 75 Compact D, which is about the same weight as P09 but with its aluminum alloy frame simply feels as much more of a gun than the polymer).
 
Snejdarek:

I'd love to have a P-09, but the comparison was to a P-07 -- because it's a "compact" model. (I wonder if you accidentally called the P-07 a P-09? The P-09 is a much larger gun; don't know about weight.)

I suspect that the P-07 might be 90%-95% of the gun the Sphinx is, performance wise, for maybe 50% of the price. (With a few CGW parts and tweaks it might be even closer.) I'm not ready to sell or trade my P-07. It's certainly a very good gun. Is the Sphinx worth the extra several hundred dollars? If you start looking at things like fit and finish, the P-07 doesn't stack up as well, but that might not matter to many shooters. I think the ergonomics, something that CZ is noted for, are better with the SDP. So it's not about performance, alone.

The differences between the CZ P-07 and the Sphinx SDP are like the differences seen when a top-of-the-line Porsche is compared to a top-of-the-line Corvette. (I'm basing this analogy upon a number of recent tests and comparisons I've read in recent Road & Track, and Car & Driver magazines.) The writers and drivers doing those tests LOVED the Porsche but were also very, very impressed with the Corvettes.

Generally speaking the Porsches seems to be better all-around autos for the kind of driving and competition they were designed for -- but the hottest/top-performing Corvettes performed about 98% as well for about half the price of the hottest/top-performing Porsches. (Note: I acknowledge that this car topic -- and the dollars involved -- are way about my PAY GRADE and income level.)

The point I'm trying to make, however, is that when the performance is that close, the DRIVER (or with a gun, the SHOOTER) may be the biggest factor in determining which one would come out on top in any test. (In the Porsche/Corvette comparisons/tests I saw, the same drivers drove both cars for all the tests.)

People spend a lot of money buying P-01s, juicing them up on steroids from CZ Custom and Cajun Gun Works, and they seem very happy with their upgrades. Sometimes they send them off to have it done at the shops. Those finished guns are quite similar in performance to the Sphinx SDP. Are they worth the extra dollars spent on the stock guns (which can be even more costly than than a new SDP)? Most of the owners think so. That's up to you and your pocketbook. If money is the ONLY consideration, the answer is easy.

I would argue that It simply isn't always a matter of the "most bang for the buck." I think you make a similar case yourself when you talk about your reluctance to get a P-09, despite well-regarded performance. Your disdain (probably too strong a term) for the feel of the P-09 when compared to your stainless CZ-75B says that money alone, for you, isn't the key factor when making a buying decision. Some people feel the same about the P-07 when compared to the SDP.
 
Last edited:
I look at Bud's and I see Sphinx for $999 and CZ P09 for $471. I will assume that those prices are representative.

I did not say that P09 is on par with Sphinx when it comes to all the finites you mentioned. What I said is that according to most reviews albeit with more detailed craftmanship, Sphinx does not better CZ P09 where it really matters - reliability and accuracy.

For me it is like with 1911. There will be always market for the high end guns that give you a better feel but still don't do anything better. But that market will be always limited. With CZ not having such a large following in US as 1911 has, Sphinx is a risky bet for the manufacturer.


Early P07 was uses plastic that CZ stopped using on its guns and for a good reason. I don't think that it is a fair comparison given that the manufacturer itself considered it unsatisfactory product.

On the other hand, I was shooting new P09 yesterday and I must admit that it does feel cheap. I was thinking about getting one together with PDW conversion, but I am not so sure after yesterday. But that may be because I mainly shoot and carry CZ 75 Stainless with competition hammer (the other carry gun is CZ 75 Compact D, which is about the same weight as P09 but with its aluminum alloy frame simply feels as much more of a gun than the polymer).

I believe that your initial premise is flawed because you are attempting to apply subjective tastes, wants and performance differences as if they were universal truth. I think Walt's car analogy is spot on. In the right hands the difference in performance between two very good products can be revealed. That does not mean everyone needs to buy a Porsche over a Vet but to ignore or discount the differences seems wrong.

You are working under the assumption For me it is like with 1911. There will be always market for the high end guns that give you a better feel but still don't do anything better. But that market will be always limited.

A truly bespoke 1911 is capable in the right hands of doing things that a RIA GI gun cannot. That is fact. For example Les Baer and other manufacturers can guarantee you a 1.5" group at 50 yards. That might not matter to you. You might not want to pay extra for that but to say that a gun capable of that group doesn't do anything better than a $400 RIA is not correct. Also the idea that a market is limited does not diminish the differences between one product or another. A limited market also does not diminish value or performance. There is a limited market for Ferrari 488s and it can certainly do things that a Honda Accord cannot. The limited market does not change the nature and performance of the 2 cars.

When you approach this subject with this as your foundational premise of course you come to the conclusion that the P07 is just as good as the SDP. Your reason is circular. Mine for justifying the SDP over the P07 is as well. We are working from different spheres of belief and value. So it only makes sense that we draw different conclusions. For me best bang for the buck is no longer the criteria that I purchase handguns with. I am looking for "value" and performance based on my personal subjective criteria. With that in mind here is why I think the SDP is a better value than the P07.

I think your dollar figures are a bit off. The SDP Alpha can be had for about $725 give or take a few $$$. If you are stepping up to the SDP with the all aluminum frame you are adding $75-$100. $999 is MSRP and no one should pay that for any gun. IMHO. The CZ P07 is a $400-$425 gun. I see them for sale at that price all the time.

So we are really talking about a $300 spread between the 2 guns. For me and my $$$ there is more than $300 worth of value in the SDP over the CZ P07. They are all subjective but I believe they are worth the upcharage. The barrel is polygon rifling, the ergos are better, the sights are better, the trigger pull out of the box is cleaner, the overall quality of the materials and workmanship are superior. For me is simply a better all around gun and most important of all it shoots better in my hands.

This does not mean that the P07 is not a good gun and that it does not get the job done. It certainly can and does. When you are comparing one gun to another the law of diminishing returns is always at play. The P07 gets you 85-90% of the way to a Sphinx IMHO. You will then pay almost 70% more to get that extra 10-15% that the SDP in my mind represents. This is assuming you leave them stock. For me it is worth it. Clearly for you it is not. You see a waste of money where I see a ton of value. I compare my SDP to custom or semi-custom guns. For me the comparison is not the SDP down to the P07 but up. I compare it to guns like the HK P7, the Sig P210, custom 1911s and custom BHPs all of which cost more than the SDP.

To get the P07 into the discussion it needs some upgrades. As a point of comparison if you bought a P07 and then bought a CGW custom Pro kit and had them install it you would be over the cost of the SDP. The Pro Kit installed is $329 IIRC plus the cost of shipping both ways. Lets call that $100. So a CGW P07 is going to run you $829. If you install the parts yourself you can save $200. So in that scenario you have $629 in a P07. The ergos are still not as good. The overall quality of construction is lower and the sights are still not as good. Now its action and it pure functionality is going to be very close to the SDP but in order to close the gap you needed to add at least $229 to your P07 price and you are still falling short of the level of the SDP. So for me personally I paid the extra $100 + $15 for a few springs and bought the SDP.

The other comparison I would offer up is that the SDPs workmanship, materials and over all feel are equal to guns that cost 2 to 3X what the SDP cost me. It is a production line gun but in my hand it feels on par with these two which cost a lot more than the SDP did.

sXWprkP.jpg

Rhr4AE4.gif

So value becomes a matter of perspective. Anyway clearly you do not see the value in the SDP line over the CZ. I can understand that but I look at it from a different angle.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top