Help with British Enfield No4 Mk1 stock replacement

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Hey all, I have lurked here for a LONG time, and generally have to say that this is my go-to spot for firearms info. That being said, I need help with a project. I picked up a "sporterized" (meaning mutilated) Lee-Enfield rifle. I am just replacing the wood with military stocks for now, but I have a couple of questions I can't find the answer to, and was hoping for someone to shed some light.

First, there is a wood screw in between the front magazine recess and the front recoil lug area, crossing the stock from left to right. Why is it there? can I just fill in with a walnut dowel and sand smooth, or replace the rusty screw with brass to match the buttplate if it is necessary.But it doesn't look like something bubba did. There are shoulders inside the hole that look like it was done with something other than a craftsman drill bit.

How do I tell if I have a late or early model butt stock socket? I can get either one, but I don't know how to identify the differences. If it helps the rifle was manufactured in 1942 (I think, the stampings are very faint) and the serial on the wrist is I (?) as in India, 6233.

How do the handguard clips go on? are they riveted, and if so, how?

Is that flat metal bar running crossways of the action end of the walnut the keeper plate?

Thanks in advance for any help you can give.
 
First, there is a wood screw in between the front magazine recess and the front recoil lug area, crossing the stock from left to right. Why is it there? can I just fill in with a walnut dowel and sand smooth, or replace the rusty screw with brass to match the buttplate if it is necessary.But it doesn't look like something bubba did. There are shoulders inside the hole that look like it was done with something other than a craftsman drill bit.
Sounds like the notorious "Ishapore screw." http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=11600 Personally, I would consider a stock (forend) with that screw unacceptable. Find another one.
How do I tell if I have a late or early model butt stock socket? I can get either one, but I don't know how to identify the differences. If it helps the rifle was manufactured in 1942 (I think, the stampings are very faint) and the serial on the wrist is I (?) as in India, 6233.
There was some evolution in the butt stock wood as it fits into the socket, but this shouldn't make any difference to you. The wood still needs to be fitted into the socket. Buttstocks come in three lengths.

No. 4 serial numbers all have a prefix letter. The important thing is that the number on the back of the bolt handle match the number on the receiver. The "I" does not stand for India because India did not make No. 4's.
How do the handguard clips go on? are they riveted, and if so, how?
The handguards are not clipped on. They are held on by the bands. They have metal liners on the ends that are riveted on, but these metal liners are integral parts of the handguards at manufacture. Don't worry about them.
Is that flat metal bar running crossways of the action end of the walnut the keeper plate?
It's a reinforcement to keep the wood from splitting. That's actually a recognition feature of the No. 4 Mk. I. The Mk. II doesn't have a bar, but just a transverse screw there.
 
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From Ian Skennerton's website: serial number info, http://www.enfieldcollector.com/serials.html You will find more detail in Stratton who wrote another collector's book on the No. 4.

It is rare to find the handguards without the metal reinforcement but those are floating around out there along with the rivets and metal pieces themselves. Early no. 4 rifles often used a lower handguard that had grooves for grasping which disappeared for later ones.

Buttstocks are generally interchangeable among no. 4's but often require minor fitting and you can even fit a No. 1 buttstock in a pinch. You can get them in different lengths (S, Regular, Long) which sometimes are confused with Savage stamped (stylized block type S), and Long Branch stamped butt stocks. Earlier rifles used walnut while many later ones are beech or birch and some coming from India are of some other wood if I remember correctly.

These folks are good people and have pictures of the different parts for the No. 4 that they stock. https://www.ssporters.com/british-enfield-s/134.htm?searching=Y&sort=7&cat=134&show=30&page=1 and http://www.brpguns.com/no-4-mk-1-stock-trigger-magazine-parts/

For the most part, many of the current used stocks are coming from India so many will have the Ishipore screw. Ebay and other auction sites have original "new" old stock forends (some being shipped from the UK and Australia--which often have high shipping cost) and I believe that some aftermarket replacement stocks are still being made in England but not sure about that.

For the most part, armorers such as Cpt. Peter Laidler note that issued rifles were often mix masters on parts so you will see issued rifles with English receivers and Savage barrels, mismatched stocks in color or even wood type, different manufacturers of the various metal pieces, and so on. In that respect, they are similar to a lot of Garands or M1 Carbines.
 
Thank you for the reply. As much as the screw sounds like a bad bit of business, I am in love with the grain of that piece of walnut. I will fill in with a walnut dowel and sand smooth.

On the handguards and butt stock, you just made my restoration a LOT easier.
I wasn't trying for India as in the country, I meant India the phonic alphabet. didn't realize the mistake until your post.
 
For the most part, many of the current used stocks are coming from India so many will have the Ishipore screw. Ebay and other auction sites have original "new" old stock forends (some being shipped from the UK and Australia--which often have high shipping cost) and I believe that some aftermarket replacement stocks are still being made in England but not sure about that.
If you're going to completely restock an Enfield No. 4, you might as well use NOS wood, and walnut at that. Check Ebay to see what's available. There seems to still be quite a bit of NOS wood in England.

Many of the used stocks have excessive arsenal patching. The British armorers were misers in that regard, and never seem to have thrown anything away. (This is in marked contrast to American military armorers, who would trash any questionable wood rather than try to repair it.)

Another reason to use NOS wood is that it makes the necessary fitting in the "draws" area of the receiver much easier. With used wood, you will probably have to add shims to get a tight fit. New wood gives you plenty of material that you can shave down to get that same fit.

A nice set of NOS walnut for a No. 4 is going to cost you around $200 (or more). Bear this in mind when shopping for a restorable gun.

Forends are much harder to find than buttstocks. An excess of buttstocks was made, to allow for the fitting of the three lengths as required for individual soldiers.

Your restoration is not complete without the proper sling, and the oiler and pull-through for the buttstock recess. And don't forget the spike bayonet.
 
Now I have found that the stock not only has no holes drilled for the forearm cap pins but it seems that the stock inletting was not finished. Normal to find a forearm with the pin holes undrilled, ishy screwed, and not fitted to the action?
 
All the replacement forends that I've seen already have the cap installed. What you may have is one in an earlier stage of manufacture, although the presence of an "Ishapore screw" is a mystery. Maybe that's not what it is.
 
And, as well, when I tried to fit the upper hand guards together with the forearm, just to see what the front end would look like, the top hand guards would not allow the barrel band(made by Savage) anywhere near the clearance to fit. The top guards are a matched pair taken off a service rifle (check apex gun parts for the listing I am talking about) so I KNOW they are correct.the rear top guard also fit the rear band very tightly, but I expected that.

I believe the inletting was not completed, and now I am wondering if I have to plane some wood off of the top of the fore end, as there is wood peeking up over the forend cap.

Also, my brass butt plate arrived, since springfieldsporters.com is down for maintenance I ordered off of fleabay. My unissued long walnut buttstock has gaps and I am assuming fitting of the buttplate to the stock is in order?

THANK YOU for all the responses, Alexander, you are a true help in this endeavor.
 
And, as well, when I tried to fit the upper hand guards together with the forearm, just to see what the front end would look like, the top hand guards would not allow the barrel band(made by Savage) anywhere near the clearance to fit. The top guards are a matched pair taken off a service rifle (check apex gun parts for the listing I am talking about) so I KNOW they are correct.the rear top guard also fit the rear band very tightly, but I expected that.

I believe the inletting was not completed, and now I am wondering if I have to plane some wood off of the top of the fore end, as there is wood peeking up over the forend cap.

Also, my brass butt plate arrived, since springfieldsporters.com is down for maintenance I ordered off of fleabay. My unissued long walnut buttstock has gaps and I am assuming fitting of the buttplate to the stock is in order?

THANK YOU for all the responses, Alexander, you are a true help in this endeavor.

On new stocks, the norm is to have to fit it to the action. On milsurps, it is usually a bit worse because you typically have things like handguards, multiple barrel bands, etc. to fit. Occasionally you have to drill holes for recoil bolts and the like. What I recommend is using some sort of removable marking fluid on the action--believe it or not really cheap horribly colored lipstick works ok but brownells sells the inletting fluid as well. If you have access to lampblack, it can work but it is a pain to remove from the wood. One of the major issues is to be careful on fitting--start with the buttstock as it is generally easier. You need sand paper of various cut levels, sanding blocks, some sharp hobby/carving knifes usually available at craft shops, and I use scrapers and Gunslick's barrel bedding tool of the appropriate barrel diameter.

Examples are https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-...tting-tools/barrel-bedding-tool-prod6796.aspx and the scrapers made by Jerry Fisher are very useful if you keep them sharp https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-...nd-tools/wood-scrapers/scrapers-prod6521.aspx. Some use sandpaper with a dowel rod of the appropriate barrel diameter but this can be inconsistent if you are not careful. If you really want to do a bangup job--Forsters makes some inletting screws that help speed the process up where you mount the action with the inletting marking applied, pull it out, remove the high points, and so on until perfect. Inletting screws prevent mangling your existing action screws when doing so and are also helpful in glass bedding. https://www.forsterproducts.com/product/stock-inletting-guide-screws/

The buttstock fitting mainly requires a very long screwdriver and removing just a sufficient amount of wood material underneath the receiver's butt socket to leave an even hairline gap (about a thin fingernail width all around) to prevent recoil from chipping the wood on the buttstock. Buttplates require similar fitting but you can cheat if you want. Sometimes the buttplate is oversized and you can carefully file it to match the buttstock. An oversized buttstock requires sanding to fit the buttplate.

The forestock/forend should be next to be fitted. Fitting the draws of the new forestock is critical to accuracy and the longevity of the stock
See the following stickies from milsurp.com for exactly how to do it the military armorer way ( a military surplus specific forum) from Master Armorer Cpt. Peter Laidler https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=16948

Roger Wadham's book also outlines exactly how to get the most out of your new stock as well as other features with copious pictures which Laidler's postings do not have.

Wadham's book is available via Kindle and softcover http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=39145 and also covers setting the Enfield up for competitive milsurp shooting.

On the cap pins, use a drill press and the proper vises with shims (old playing card sets, a bit of cork, bits and pieces of wood scrap, leather, cloth etc. are useful here to keep your new stock undented and the holes straight. Difficult to get it right freehand with a portable electric drill. Use the right tools and avoid headaches.
 
Any tips on how to install the king screw collar? Apex included one by accident, didn't even know I needed it, but now I need to install it.
 
Everything else is fitted up, she is assembled right now, less cap pins and king screw collar. So far, so good. Just wondering if the front sight is supposed to tap out that easily, or how to adjust the front sight tensioner.
 
A) Is the hole for the king screw bushing present in the stock forend? If not, then you have to carefully drill the correct spot which means consulting plans and/or using the receiver to mark where the center is. It is precision work and needs to be treated that way with a proper drill press, fractional drill bits, etc. Go to milsurps.com and post for Peter Laidler or gunboards and post a beg for Alan DeEnfield, Brian Dick who runs BDL, also is a good one to consult.

If the hole is present, does it appear to be on center? Off-center holes have to be corrected before use. Generally the king screw collar should be tight enough to stay put but not so tight as to cause cracking--you see a lot of used forends with chipped out areas where the collar was too loose allowing recoil to chip it out or cracks in the forend from being too tight. Snug but that can be pushed out with finger pressue is what you want and you should be able to press or lightly tap the bushing into place with a wood, plastic, or rawhide mallet (not a hammer). If the hole's inside diameter is too snug, then you have to widen it carefully. There are several ways to do it but each have their pitfalls. The king screw hole in the forend that is way too small needs to be rectifying by the proper size drill to get close to the final inside diameter. If it is barely too small, then one way is a reamer that is sized the hole, another cruder method that works is a dowel wrapped in fine grain sandpaper--dowel diameter should just fit the hole with the sandpaper. TAKE your time on this--making the hole off center is a pain to correct and will affect the accuracy of your rifle. Wood is easy to remove and hard as heck to put back so be double cautious and take the time to do it right.

Do not unless you can do precision work with a motorized tools use something like a dremel. It is too easy to screw up in a microsecond. Handtools work just fine on stock fitting. Round files aka rattail files of the proper diameter also work but you need a file that fits the hole to avoid making it too big or off center.

Epoxy it or glue it in is an option. Sometimes, if you are working with a damaged old stock, you have to do it as this area is a focus of recoil and is often damaged in a working rifle. On a new stock, a few use it apart from correcting an off center hole. So, unnless you need to repair this area which is rare on a new stock, I don't recommend epoxying/gluing/etc. the king screw collar (bushing) in place as it can create problems down the road.

The next issue is that you sometimes have to fit the height of the collar aka bushing. Make sure that the receiver is fully in place first, then fit the trigger guard. If the trigger guard is proud and sticking out past the wood at the king screw then you need to carefully file, stone, or otherwise remove some of the bushing material while maintaining level of the piece. If the trigger guard is somewhat recessed at the king screw, functionally that is ok but your choice there is to get a longer bushing to even it out or remove wood. Generally, I would leave the wood alone and find another collar. Generally, alter the cheaper part if you have to make a choice which to alter. I do not recommend using washers or shims to lengthen the collar/bushing. The fit of the king screw system and the ensuing tension on the forend with the screw is crucial to accuracy and protecting the forend.

B) Regarding the front sight blade unit proper, it should not be loose enough to move it with your finger. If it is, then you need to gently swage material to make the dovetail smaller on either the front sight base dovetail (hammer and punch work here but delicately) or the sight blade unit (it is a pain because it is too small and you have to secure it in a vise. Some of the front sight blades are a solid base and some are split. The split ones can be adjusted in snugness via careful manipulation of the slot but I personally have never done that. The Brits used a front sight pusher to zero it and then punched a reference line on both the sight base and the front sight blade after zeroing. I find that fingernail polish or some other marking fluid can work as a witness mark just as well. If you know how, you can lightly stake the front sight blade in place after initial sighting in. Avoid loctite/etc. or heavy staking unless you are sure that you won't adjust the sights--it takes some time shooting the rifle before you know that you don't want to adjust the front sight.

Okay, the next challenge is that depending on how you bedded it, the stock, the receiver, the rear sights, etc. help determine what sight height and distance that you want to zero the rifle. Like the Swedes, the British designed the rifle to take different heights of front sight blades (btw, sight blades for the P14 and P17 US also fit the dovetail). You have to decide for what ammunition that you are going to use and what distance that you want to zero and then have the proper height sight blade if you want to have the rifle shoot true to its sights. For rough sighting in on iron sights, I use a bore laser to get the front sight blade in place and properly lined up first before the range trip.
 
WOW. I didn't even know about this part, and it turns out to be way important. everything passes the functions test (safety on, rifle won't fire, safety off, rifle fires, can't do a sear reset test because of the design, this isn't like my old M4, but otherwise good) slight bit of tension in the king screw swiveling up the trigger guard from the rear trigger guard screw, will assembling the rifle with no forestock but bushing in place give me any indication of bushing length?

I will NOT fire this weapon until it is to my satisfaction. I have already obtained the set of different height front sight blades, and will soon look into a click adjustment rear sight to provide proper adjustment.

I still have to fit the butt plate to the butt stock, aquire the proper sling with brass accruements,fit the king screw collar bushing, white the hand guards to remove some of the oils and grease in them, patch the ishapore hole, drill the cap pin holes, light stain on the fore stock and hand guards to match the butt stock, refinish the metal pieces in black K G Gunkote, and apply considerable Tru-Oil to the wood pieces after I have matched the color as closely as possible.

Whew. Lot to do. I might fire this rifle this year.
 
WOW. I didn't even know about this part, and it turns out to be way important. everything passes the functions test (safety on, rifle won't fire, safety off, rifle fires, can't do a sear reset test because of the design, this isn't like my old M4, but otherwise good) slight bit of tension in the king screw swiveling up the trigger guard from the rear trigger guard screw, will assembling the rifle with no forestock but bushing in place give me any indication of bushing length?

I will NOT fire this weapon until it is to my satisfaction. I have already obtained the set of different height front sight blades, and will soon look into a click adjustment rear sight to provide proper adjustment.

I still have to fit the butt plate to the butt stock, aquire the proper sling with brass accruements,fit the king screw collar bushing, white the hand guards to remove some of the oils and grease in them, patch the ishapore hole, drill the cap pin holes, light stain on the fore stock and hand guards to match the butt stock, refinish the metal pieces in black K G Gunkote, and apply considerable Tru-Oil to the wood pieces after I have matched the color as closely as possible.

Whew. Lot to do. I might fire this rifle this year.

Yep. To do a good job it does take time. Glad to know you are not in a hurry. On a few of my restorations, it took about 6 months or longer if stuff was messed up to restore.

To clarify what I said above and to answer your question, yes if you can do precision measurements. The critical fit will be at the bottom and you can measure the thickness of your trigger guard-collar bushing, etc. if you attach the trigger guard with the king screw. Then measure your wood--best if you have a depth gage.

Remember, if you have the collar/bushing for the king screw in place with the receiver and the trigger guard is setting proud (above the wood line) at the bottom, then your bushing is too high and it needs to be shortened. Barely proud, usually is taken care of when you tighten the king screw to the recommended torque. Recessed, your bushing/collar is too short--easy fix is to get another one--don't use a washer etc. to adjust height as it can introduce more problems. Use a bit of soap applied to the outside of the collar when initially putting the collar in the hole. I also apply a bit of soap (ivory works just fine but so does liquid soap) on wood screws' shafts to lubricate them before screwing them into the wood. Helps avoid putting too much pressure to tighten down screws and risk buggering up heads of them.

I did forget to mention, sometimes you can have a king screw that is too long which can cause a problem but it is more noticeable as this happens when the trigger guard fits flush with the wood stock and the king screw is proud. Usually I just get another king screw as they are fairly cheap but you can shorten the screw if you are careful.
 
Well, I have set the king screw bushing, Tru-oiled the stock, fitted everything together, and now just have to fit the butt plate and drill the forestock cap pin holes. The pin holes are the only things giving me worry, as I want to drill them straight. My idea is to clamp the forestock (with my wife holding the other end for stability) on a piece of 90 degree angle iron. Clamp it in place with squeeze clamps, use two small levels to make certain it is level on both axis', and use the drill press to drill the holes true. The pin holes should fit tight, yes? This my last chance to screw up this rifle, and I would like to finish strong.

The pin holes are the last hurdle before metal refinishing, any last minute critiques of planned pin hole drilling actions are wanted!
 
The pin holes are the last hurdle before metal refinishing, any last minute critiques of planned pin hole drilling actions are wanted!
I would drill the pin holes halfway into the wood from each side, and try to have the holes meet in the middle. Start by drilling them undersize. If you can see light by looking through one side, you're in the ballpark. Then you can ream the hole to finished size by letting the drill follow the smaller hole.
 
Went to my gunsmith and had him drill the pin holes for the cap. NOW she has all the parts attached. Just have to take a slight bit off of the base of the buttstock at the action (i fitted a little TOO well at the action) to avoid splitting/chipping under recoil, and either fit the butt plate I have, or order a NOS one from SpringfieldSporters and fit that one.

Now, my next question is, what do the numbers stamped on the different front sight blades mean? I have two marked "0", one marked ".015" and one marked ".030".

I will fire for group to see if the barrel is shot out before metal refinishing(shouldn't be, the rifling is prominent when I look down the bore).

I am starting off with Wolf Military Classic, at 25 and 50 meters, to see where I am at, then will try different brands to see what she likes.

Almost time to sight in, the day draws nigh.
 
Went to my gunsmith and had him drill the pin holes for the cap. NOW she has all the parts attached. Just have to take a slight bit off of the base of the buttstock at the action (i fitted a little TOO well at the action) to avoid splitting/chipping under recoil, and either fit the butt plate I have, or order a NOS one from SpringfieldSporters and fit that one.

Now, my next question is, what do the numbers stamped on the different front sight blades mean? I have two marked "0", one marked ".015" and one marked ".030".

I will fire for group to see if the barrel is shot out before metal refinishing(shouldn't be, the rifling is prominent when I look down the bore).

I am starting off with Wolf Military Classic, at 25 and 50 meters, to see where I am at, then will try different brands to see what she likes.

Almost time to sight in, the day draws nigh.
Used for zeroing vertically as Lee-Enfields do not have the tightest of fit to specifications in things like barrels etc. I suspect that the Brits reasoned that overly tight specifications for some parts was not needed if it could be altered by a cheap part--one example is that the no. 4 rifle bolt heads differed in number for assembly to allow rifle bolt bodies and barrel combinations made by different suppliers to headspace--just happened that a happy coincidence allows some adjustment of headspace in used rifles. The Swedes made even more front sight blades to adjust front sight heights on their Mausers. The Brits also allowed alternatives such as the No. 4, Mk 1* which omitted the bolt release among other things. Remington did something similar in their revisions to the 1903 in WWII which eventually became the 1903a3.

Machine tools were expensive and needed for other things so good enough and functional became the order of the day.

FYI
"All Lee Enfield's utilized a dovetailed, blade type, front sight. (Note: SMLE and No4 front sights will not interchange because of different dovetail dimensions) There were nine different front sights available and were marked on top of their base with their sizes. They were: .090, .075, .060, .045, .030, .015, .0, -.015 and -.030" http://www.milsurps.com/enfield.php?pg=ti14.htm

Armorers zeroed the rifles and there is a front sight tool to drift the front sight for l-r or r-l corrections. You can also use a brass punch.

Old THR thread
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/lee-enfield-question.355957/

Alan De Enfield at Gunboards, on SMLE front sight blade heights and their projected change in POI. Also how to tell No. 1, Mk. 3 front sight blades versus No. 4, Mk. 1 (and 2).

http://www.enfield-rifles.com/no-1-mk-iii-front-sight-problem_topic5068.html
 
Well, it is almost high noon on my Birthday (43, how the hell did THAT happen?) and I am off to the range to fire for group and function. All I could get hold of was wolf military classic, so I am not expecting cloverleafs, but a good consistent grouping would be nice.

Couple of updates: that forestock isn't walnut, I believe it's mahogany. Also, KG Gunkote has been ditched in favor of Cerakote elite, black, because I don't have an oven big enough for the barreled action.

Well, time to find out if a criterion barrel is on the horizon or not.
 
Well, got to the range today. First, I have NEVER had this happen before. Cheap wolf ammo, and only twenty yards for a diagnostic grouping, to see how it is grouping and what adjustments need to be made.

WELL....

Aimed at the bottom of the bull with the three hundred meter peep, and point of impact was EXACTLY to point of aim.

Fired a second five round grouping, this time at center, and the group was 7/8ths of an inch outside edge to outside edge!

Don't think I need a new barrel.

enfield diagnostic.jpg
 
If my trigger discipline had been better it would have been closer to a half an inch. I realize it was only twenty yards, but it is a very good indicator of things to come.

The before pictures, and the halfway pictures will be up soon.
 
Fired a five shot 50 yard (by my steps, dude with a laser said it was 48) and ended up with a 1-7/8ths inch group that was four inches higher than point of aim, discounting one called flyer. aimed at the bottom of a four inch square bullseye and ended up hitting the top third of the square. Same ammo.

( the fact that I was also shooting with bruised ribs from a boxing match MIGHT have had something to do with the larger group and flyer)
 
also I am noticing my casings are hardly ejecting at all. as well, sometimes the first round in the mag gets skipped over by the bolt. time for a new ejector screw and mag spring maybe?
 
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