S&W U.S. Navy Victory Model

After the number of hours you have been working lately it is amazing that your eyes were open long enough to spot it.

Howdy

Very nice. Just be careful, the Victories with the V Serial Number prefix are the ones with the old style hammer block inside. The type that failed once killing a sailor in 1944 when the gun fell to the deck of a warship. The ones with a SV prefix have the modern style hammer block inside.

Question for you:

Every Victory model I have ever handled has the hammer spur and sights arranged so that I simply could not see the sights with the hammer down. The hammer blocked the sights.

Curious about yours.

Alright...now I’m waiting for the Air Force victory. And you just stumble across these?

Sweet gun! Id love to see how it groups with some wadcutters!

Driftwood Johnson said:

Very nice. Just be careful, the Victories with the V Serial Number prefix are the ones with the old style hammer block inside. The type that failed once killing a sailor in 1944 when the gun fell to the deck of a warship. The ones with a SV prefix have the modern style hammer block inside.

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As always, a well informed post by Driftwood. Based on an examination of the lockworks, I would say that it is probably that more people were killed by this mechanism. These are the internals to my Victory Revolver:



The hammer block is a spring. The cylinder hand pushes it out of the way. However, lets say the spring breaks, or is gummed up by oil, grease, etc. If it was, then there would be nothing blocking the firing pin from touching a primer, if the pistol was dropped on its hammer.



I did not know S&W changed the internals out during WW2, I thought I read that that was done later in the 1950's. Regardless, be aware of this design defect.

Actually, the old Smiths with the old style hammer block are safer than you may think.

There had to be two internal failures for one to discharge by falling on the hammer. The first line of defense was (and still is) the bump on the top of the rebound slide which automatically cams the hammer back slightly when the trigger is released. A double action revolver with a swing out cylinder has to have a rebounding hammer like this or when you try to open it the firing pin can get stuck in a fired primer. Swing out cylinder Smiths have always had a rebounding hammer for this reason. The very early Smiths had no hammer block at all, completely relying on the bump on the rebound slide to withdraw the hammer.

(Actually, before 1905 there was a different mechanism that did the same thing, but everything made after 1905 has the bump on the rebound slide)

So even without a hammer block, the blow to the hammer would have to be quite stout. Stout enough to either crush the rebound slide, break off the lower portion of the hammer, or break the stud the hammer rotates on. Still, safer than the so called 'safety cock notch' on a Colt SAA, which could snap off it you looked at it crosswise.

I forget what year S&W started installing hammer blocks, but it was quite early, probably the late teens or early twenties. There were two different styles of these early hammer blocks.

This is the first style. The hammer block was a piece of spring steel staked to a slot in the side plate. A spring loaded plunger shoved by the hand pushed the hammer block into the side plate, withdrawing it from between the hammer and the frame.






The second style is what failed in the Navy incident. This one used a ramp on the hand to withdraw the hammer block. Less parts, simpler to make than the first type. It was determined that cosmoline had not been properly cleaned out of the mechanism, and the hammer block became hung up in the retracted position. Still, not only did this need to happen, but something also had to give way with the rebounding system. I seem to recall the hammer stud sheared in that case, but I could be wrong.






Anyway, since it was wartime, and S&W had some pretty big contracts to provide revolvers to the government, they were told to fix it fast. S&W set up some fixtures to drop revolvers onto a concrete floor. I forget how high they were dropping them, maybe belt height or something. They did get some failures.

So the engineers were called in and within a week they came up with the modern style hammer block. The hammer block is a separate part which rides in a slot in the side plate. Much more positive, this one relies on a pin mounted on the rebound slide to withdraw the hammer block. When the trigger is released and the massive spring in the rebound slide shoves it forward, the hammer block is pushed back up between the hammer and the frame. In point of fact, the rebounding feature of the hammer still functions to keep the hammer back, and the hammer never actually touches the hammer block. It is there for added insurance. This is the same style hammer block S&W has been using ever since 1944.






Even with the new MIM parts, they are still using the same basic hammer block design.






The hammer block is still a stamping. The part is stamped first, then twisted to form the tab that goes between the hammer and the frame. The one at the top in this photo is the type used in all the guns made since 1944 with forged parts. The one at the bottom is the type used in the MIM parts guns. For some reason, it is twisted the opposite way.






I still can't figure out why S&W wanted the hammer to block the sights on the Victory Models. I have lots of old Smiths, and I can see the sights on all of them with the hammer down. Maybe Smith thought WWII service men did not need to see the sights for double action shooting.

Driftwood Johnson said:

Actually, the old Smiths with the old style hammer block are safer than you may think.

There had to be two internal failures for one to discharge by falling on the hammer. The first line of defense was (and still is) the bump on the top of the rebound slide which automatically cams the hammer back slightly when the trigger is released. A double action revolver with a swing out cylinder has to have a rebounding hammer like this or when you try to open it the firing pin can get stuck in a fired primer. Swing out cylinder Smiths have always had a rebounding hammer for this reason. The very early Smiths had no hammer block at all, completely relying on the bump on the rebound slide to withdraw the hammer.

(Actually, before 1905 there was a different mechanism that did the same thing, but everything made after 1905 has the bump on the rebound slide)

So even without a hammer block, the blow to the hammer would have to be quite stout. Stout enough to either crush the rebound slide, break off the lower portion of the hammer, or break the stud the hammer rotates on. Still, safer than the so called 'safety cock notch' on a Colt SAA, which could snap off it you looked at it crosswise.

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Excellent post Driftwood. What we see in the design of the pistol is also a reflection of changing attitudes towards safety. The last safety philosophy I was aware of was a "fail safe" design approach. That is, when the mechanism broke, it failed safe. Such as this Ruger Super Blackhawk:







The transfer bar broke on this pistol and rendered the pistol incapable of firing. Is that good or bad?. If you live in a monster movie, one where you are continually attacked by monsters, this would be bad, because when the transfer bar breaks, you can't shoot the monster. Luckily, only actors live in a monster movie, though misfortune does happen in the real world. In the real world, when things break unsafe, lots of people have been injured and killed. These conflicting view points are always a source of friction with the military user, who always wants a "battle short". That is a red button they can push and over ride all the safety warnings, hardware faults, and keep the system operational. I recall one Program Manager who told a Military user, that he would provide a red "battle short" button, for the half billion dollar system, one the user could press to his heart's desire, but the button would not do anything. Like the door close button in an elevator, those are there to make you feel good, they actually don't work. The user, needless to say, was not happy.

Most modern equipment does not come with a red, battle short button. When the system is over stressed, it shuts down. I saw a crane operating that way, when the software decided that the load was too great, that the crane was in risk of tipping, or dropping the load, the hoist mechanism turned off, and the operator could do nothing but reduce the load on the boom.

Anyway, I don't know whom you can sue if you shoot yourself with a Victory Model Pistol, so, just be aware of the hardware limitations.

Nice old revolver! I will have to get me a Victory Model one of these days.

Gunny

Awesome find (and price), on that Victory Model!

Old engineering thumb rule as was taught to old engineers:

"You can make it foolproof. You can't make it damnfoolproof."

Man you found a good shop there!
Nice guns.

Excellent find! I would love to have that one- no Navy weapons in my US mil collection (yet),

GunnyUSMC said:

Looks like I might be ordering a set of grips because the sanded one are not matching to the gun.

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Well, get it a lanyard loop too, so you don't drop it.

A friend shot a Blackhawk .45 so much that the transfer bar was hammered too thin to transfer and he was getting misfires. So he took out the transfer bar and filed the hammer so it would strike the firing pin directly. Being cheap but not dumb, he reverted to 5+0 loading as he was accustomed to with his Flattop .44 anyhow. He continued in that mode until the thousands of "Ruger Only" loads cracked the forcing cone. He sent it in to Ruger with a check for the parts he knew it needed and some for labor. He got back the gun completely overhauled, looking new except for his worn grips, and $10 change. Now THAT is "good customer service."

Nice revolver Gunny!

A little bit of my early shooting was with one of those. A buddy had brought out his Dad's. The man Had been a USN pilot in WWII and after and encounter with a Japanese Flying Boat (gave it the whole nine yards) where his own plane took multiple rifle caliber hits he had a wheel blow and the tail hook snap off on landing and went over the edge of the carrier. Having been told the planes "sank like rocks" he got out of the cock pit, ran down one wing and leapt as far from the plane as possible. The dang thing floated for over a half and hour as he hung in his Mae West thinking about sharks. When he was eventually picked up and returned to his flat top he still had his revolver and harness and tried to turn it in. Quartermaster announced he had already done the paper work for it as a combat loss and refused to take it.......thus two and a half decades later teenaged boys were breaking bottles in a quarry with it.

-kBob

I need to take better pictures of this one. It was issued to my now deceased father in law. He was a Navy Pilot in WWII. I got a S&W Factory Letter that shows it shipped to the Navy Shipyard In Norfolk VA.

Also have his issued shoulder holster, flight jacket, Robeson Shur Edge knife and sheath, etc., etc. Knife is marked USN and has a wooden Pommel.

Of course the ammo shown in the picture is not what was issued. It was in the gun when we got it from my mother in law. All six of them...and this VM does not have the hammer block.

With case hardening that beautiful, I would be tempted to leave it disassembled and just admire it!

Naw, shoot that beauty like it was intended.

Col. Harrumph said:

Old engineering thumb rule as was taught to old engineers:

"You can make it foolproof. You can't make it damnfoolproof."

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My dad was an aeronautical engineer at Boeing for 40 years: 1950-1990. As I have grown older, I have come to appreciate the wisdom of one of his favorite sayings: "Every time you come up with something idiot proof, they come out with a better grade of idiot'.

WestKentucky said:

Alright...now I’m waiting for the Air Force victory. And you just stumble across these?

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If you find one, it's a fake; the Air Force didn't exist until 1947. (Although the Model 15 was a standard issue aircrew gun up through the Vietnam War.)

I will have to look inside my US PROPERTY .38 S&W I think it's a 42 or 43.

GunnyUSMC said:

This is true. That’s the way they were built.
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I guess you can say that I’m just lucky when it comes to finding guns.

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It amazes me that there was a war on, yet they had time to do that fine checkering on the top of the spur instead of just some horizontal grooves- same with the nice lettering and ejector ball. Compared to the wartime Webleys, the Victories were pretty lavish!