Charter Arms .45 Pitbull: So Far, Bite Matches Its Bark

the Black Spot said:

I bet the 45 acp cylinder is the same 1.6" wide as the 45 colt

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It's funny, but when I measured mine it came to 1.612. Well, what's a few thousands between friends. Maybe my Neiko calipers aren't the best.

Slamfire said:

When these (Charter Arms 44 Bulldogs) first came out in the 1960's, writers such as Major George Monte were recommending Elmer Keith loads.

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I think you are referring to Major George Nonte. I apologize for nitpicking. I have the impression that Nonte was famous in his day, but is largely forgotten now. Your ability to recall his recommendations for the Bulldog back when it was new speaks impressively of the depth of your knowledge.

Monac said:

I think you are referring to Major George Nonte. I apologize for nitpicking. I have the impression that Nonte was famous in his day, but is largely forgotten now. Your ability to recall his recommendations for the Bulldog back when it was new speaks impressively of the depth of your knowledge.

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Thanks for correcting the typo. My memory is not so great as I got the guy's name wrong.

Since my last post I have conducted some research on the use of 250 grain lead bullets in the 45 ACP. Finding pressure data was surprisingly difficult. My Lyman 48th does not have pressure data on the 45 LC or the 45 ACP and does not have velocity data for a 250/255 in the 45 ACP or 45 Auto Rim.

I had to get in my way back machine and look at my Sharpe "Complete Guide to Handloading". Mine is the third edition, second revision, copyright 1953.

My baseline load for the 45 ACP is a 230 FMJ with 5.0 grains Bullseye. That was the load used in the developemental 1910 cartridges, and is still an outstanding Bullseye Target load. No one shoots ball if they don't have to as the recoil is stout. The average target load is a 185 grain bullet just under 800 fps.





This is a good safe load in any 45 ACP. In Sharpe's book, he has pressure data for almost everything he lists. For a 230 grain MC (metal case) with 4.9 grains Bullseye, the CUP pressure is 15,000 and the velocity is 821 fps. For a 255 factory lead, 4.5 grs Bullseye, CUP is 15,000, and the velocity is 840 fps.

Sharpe is probably the data source I used in creating 250/255 gr loads in my Brazilian export S&W M1917

Brazilian export S&W M1917 45 ACP Revolver 5" barrel

250 LRN (.454) 4.5 grs Bullseye thrown, R-P AR cases, CCI300 primers
20-Jan-02 T = 44°F

Ave Vel = 754
Std Dev = 10
ES = 39.5
Low = 744
High = 783
N = 14

Mild recoil, aimpoint 5 OC, acceptable accuracy

Out of my five inch revolver the velocity is 750 fps, not 840 fps.

For the 45 LC, Sharpe shows for a 255 factory lead, a charge of 5.0 grains Bullseye gives a velocity of 785 fps, CUP 11,000. Six grains Bullseye gives 880 fps at 15,000 CUP. Unique is the much better choice for lower pressures as 7.0 grs Unique gives a velocity of 780 fps at 7000 cup. And the maximum charge of Unique is 8.9 grains at a velocity of 960 fps, CUP 15000.

If someone wanted to load 250's in their 45 ACP they could create reasonable loads in a Charter Arms Bulldog. The velocity would have to be in the range of 455 Webley loads, so maybe this would work in a self defense weapon. Someone would need to test to really have a good idea of penetration. I am certain that Charter Arms regulated the sights of their Bulldog for a 230 grain bullet and switching to a heavier bullet would move the point of impact radically. My 5 O'Clock hold is on a 12" gong target, so the point of aim , to get the thing to hit center at 25 yards, is radically different from that of a 230 grain bullet. At 25 yards I would have to aim at a human hip, or pant's pocket, to hit in the middle of the chest. That may or may not be an issue for a pocket pistol. At a local indoor range, as I moved my target out to 25 yards, the Range Master said, if "they" are at 25 yards, they are not a threat. Bad news for they, if they run into me.





But, I am of the opinion that if you want to toss big bullets at a moderate velocities and low pressure the 45 LC is the better choice. In every data point I have found, you can push the larger bullet to the same velocity, with less pressure, in the 45 LC case. And that is the direction I want to go in a light frame pocket pistol.

I came this close ( bout 3/4 inch)
In getting another Charter in 45acp ...
But I went a different direction...
Im a true Charter fanboy....

my Charter Pit Bull 45 ACP and some 250 grn wadcutters from Matt's bullets

I bought a Charter Arms Mag Pug in .41 Magnum last year, and I'm also pleased with it. If you can hang on to it, which isn't exactly an easy thing to do, it's accurate enough for protection. Cowboy loads are the most tolerable, and they're much more than adequate for protection against humans.

It'd been many years since I owned a CA because I had a couple that had issues back in the 1980's or late 70's, maybe. Now they seem to be producing a good functioning product.

I found Slamfire's pictures of interest, particularly those of the Ball ammunition boxes. Notice that the three top ones list velocities of "800 fps +- 25" while the later ones, from the 60s presumably, list "820 fps" for the velocity. Most folks today claim ball ammo is 850 fps but it certainly didn't start out that way. As late as the 1990s I was testing ball ammo for velocity for my department and most of the brands chronographed around 800 fps, despite claims of higher performance.

I might add that while in Vietnam I happened to see a 1968 milspec sheet for a Government purchase of 45 ACP Ball ammunition and the velocity specifications were for 830 fps +- 15, meaning it had to deliver between 815 and 845 fps. I wonder how many lots of military ball ever delivered the 845 fps, or were more of them, like the earlier productions closer to 800 fps.

Dave

Big Charter fan here. I've had a 44 spcl Bulldog for some time now and had an opportunity to buy a new 9mm Pitbull on the cheap last summer so I jumped on it. Like many have mentioned, I'm not the biggest fan of Charter rubber grips, so I popped on some Altamont grips on mine:


I shot the snot out of the thing last summer with all kinds of 9mm I had sitting around. Like my other Charter, POA is low if you use a proper 6 o'clock hold, I have to artificially "paint" the target with the entire sight post to get it to shoot where I point it. The stock trigger is not so great, but did loosen up after 500 or so rounds. Like my Bulldog, the thing smacks my trigger finger something fierce, not still quite sure why it does this.

Sadly, I need to send it back as one of the detents that hold that case in place broke off in December. Besides that, it has shot well and makes a nice "around the house" home defense weapon along side my Bulldog.

Does anyone know if the .45acp cylinder will fit the 45lc frame? I'd like to be able to switch between the two.

Nice review and good to hear all the positive points. I've been looking at the pit bull in 40cal simply because I already have a few 40cal autos and a lot of ammo for them. $400 for a revolver with a lifetime warranty is a great deal. Not having to fuss with moon clips is a huge plus.

If you’re handloading anyway and want 45LC bullets in 45 acp cases why not simply seat the heavier bullets farther forward in a 45acp case, assuming the cylinder is long enough to accommodate them? You would need to keep them labeled and segregated, but there’s not much danger of loading them in an auto because they won’t fit inside the magazine.

I have a 40 S&W barrel for my Glock 20 that has been throated to accept a bullet seated to full 10mm length. It allows me to take advantage of increased powder capacity of what would otherwise be a lower volume case. The same principle applies to revolvers, like loading 200 grain bullets for 357 magnum loads in 38 special cases because they can’t be seated deeply enough in 357 cases.

Fiv3r said:

I'm pretty sure it's brand spankin' new. From what I understand, it's a new XL frame. Now, how much bigger it is than the Pitbull, I dunno. I've never seen the .45 colt in the wild. I think that the .44 Bulldog as well as the .40 and 9mm Pitbulls are the same size, but .45 acp is large enough not to fit holsters for the others. From what I understand, the .45 colt is stretched even more to accommodate those long cartridges. i'd like to handle one in the future.

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These figures should help you determine dimension differences between the the Pitbull and the new XL ; as well as other C/A frame sizes.

Fiv3r said:

Just a follow up review.

I have taken the Pitbull out for a few shooting sessions, and it continues to shoot straight and reliably. A true fist full of bad medicine.

I have swapped the grips out for even more compact grips like those found on the Off Duty. While they certainly increase felt recoil, they make the gun even more concealable.

I had mentioned in another thread a trip I was taking to northern MI and what gun I might rely on. Well, i took 3.

My primary was a compact 9mm. Sadly, it saw no carry time lest the drive up there. The weather soured our hiking plans. 95% of the time a S&W BG380 rode along in my pocket.

However on our last night on our way home we stopped at a nice hotel in downtown Indianapolis. My wife had forgotten her charging cable in the car. We were parked not too far from the street level, and I was enlisted to go get the cord. This was around 11pm on a wednesday night.

I started my walk from the hotel down to the car. I was wearing cargo pants and had already packed my .380 away for the night. Instead I tossed the Pitbull in my generous pocket and walked to the parking garage...just in case.

The car was on the 3rd floor and our access was on 2. As i start out of the building i notice that 1/3 of the lights are out by the elevator. I hit the button and wait...and wait...and wait. The elevator only has to come up one floor to take me up another. I decide to hoof it.

I get to the stairwell and notice even more lights are out. I jog up the steps and make ot to the car to grab the cord. When I get back a heavily intoxicated guy looking for change stops me at the stairwell. I explain that i dont have anyting on me. Im in my cargo pants and a tank top with nothing but my room key (and the .45 revolver in my pocket my hand is resting on). He mumbles a bit about it being ok and I start back down the dim stairs.

The guy follows me down. Now, im not a soft target. Im 5'10 and a solid 205lbs. I dont carry myself as a someone caught unawares...but having an inebriated guy follow you down a concrete tube where he is not only behind you but has the high ground is a bit unnerving. I grip the Pitbull a bit tighter and monitor him. The only way out of the garage is on the ground floor. If he followed me off on two then there would be little reason for it.

Luckily the guy kept on trucking. I gave him a bit of a wave as I waited to turn back to the hotel entrance and went on my way as he slowly snaked his way down to wherever the night took him.

My point is that, i would have felt better with 15 rounds on jhp 9mm on my hip, but that 5 shooter loaded with big fat heavy bullets certainly gave me warmer and fuzzier feelings than the .380.

Dark night, strange town, weird guy...exactly the role I had in mind when I bought the Pitbull.

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My girlfriend and I went to a major city with an amusement park (outside our home state). We stayed in an economy themed motel in a local suburb right off the interstate. Our room was on the first floor, with our vehicle parked near our room entrance, around behind the last row of suites in the complex. Past the pool and furthest from the office.

It was a gorgeous summer day, we were just chilling in the A/C room that afternoon; when Tiffany decided that she would like a little air & sun and decided to take a walk down to the office to get a Coke from the machine located right outside the entrance. This was only about 150 yards in a straight line down the main driveway, however; our room # was the 3rd door from the corner of the building.

Returning from the vending machine she encountered a stalker as she passed the pool area. Even though she was a considerable distance ahead of him and talking to her dad on her cell, he called out to her aggressively inquiring where her boyfriend was; as he attempted to gain ground on her. Basically she just ignored him and kept walking ,his taunting became more agitated and he quickened his pace toward her trying to catch up. Fortunately she made it around the corner of the building, where he momentarily lost sight of her as she hustled to ou foon door.

Before she could even begin to explain to me what had happened our room phone rang. I answered it and there was a pause followed by a hang up. After a brief description of what nad just happened I opened the room door, scanned around the parking lot , then went to the corner and looked down the main drive toward the office. There was nobody in sight.

It was late afternoon before the influx of daily visitors and ours was the only vehicle in that end of the parking lot; the only other a considerable distance at the opposite end.

Later after we showered and changed to go to dinner, we stopped at the office and inquired about which phone number had called our room earlier, there had only been that one call; we both utilize mobile phone; then told them why we wanted to know. They asked specific questions about the Male that followed her, as if they already had a suspect in mind.

Upon returning from dinner we noticed that there was a stack of dirty, well worn suit causes stacked outside the office entrance leaning against a metal pillar where they could be viewed from the desk. Hours later they were still there, but the next morning they were gone.

While we will never know exactly what happened that day, we kind of assume that between caller ID and security video that some "resident" got evicted that evening; possibly even arrested.

What ever happened to that guy, it would have better for him than if he had assaulted my girl , as she is a champion/instructor in karate; she can and would have defended herself. N0... bullets necessary.

Having a firearm on her would certainly been reassuring. She was also carrying pepper spray.

Glad that one worked out well for all involved.

Fiv5r

I wonder if you are getting what you think you are?
I think that the problem with snub nose, big bore revolvers is the velocity. I cannot believe that a round going less than 700 fps will expand. You cannot raise velocity much (not in a small frame like the Pug) without lowering the bullet weight, which I notice, no one seems to be mentioning. Are you really getting a useful firearm?

I had a 2.75 inch barreled S&W model 24 .44 Special and the velocity was so low, I sold the gun off. I had to question whether it was anymore effective than a snub nose .38 Special loaded with +P hollow points.
My present snub nose load is the FEDERAL .38 Special +P 130 grain HST, which really will expand, but it is moving at least 150 fps or more, faster than either a .44 Special or .45ACP standard load (NOTE: I AM EXCLUDING THE SUPER, HOT BOTIQUE LOADS WHICH RECOIL LIKE A .357 MAGNUM OR WORSE).

If one of these big bores does not need to expand because it is already a .44 or .45, your logic is missing something. The HST load that I use can expand to over .60 caliber and can be used in a smaller, more concealable gun and kicks less in a steel frame J-frame.

You can go higher pressure and get higher velocities, but at a price. I had a .44 magnum 2.75 inch revolver and it was just painful to shoot full power loads, evan after MAGNA PORTING and installing rubber grips.
I used to load it with .44 Special Silvertips, but was I getting a really CONCEALABLE snub nose? I could and have carried a 4 inch .357 magnum revolver instead, a much more effective weapon.
In the end, it just did not make sense to me. I sold off my few "big bore" snub noses and stick with the HST load in .38 Special.

If I were going to carry a .45ACP snub nose, I think I would go for a lightweight bullet, but more likely, I would get the gun with a 4 inch barrel!

Just my experience,

Jim

i briefly had a charter arms 9mm revolver. worst handgun that i’ve ever shot, a taurus is light years ahead in feel and quality. the c.a. left my shooting hand bruised and bloodied.

jstert said:

i briefly had a charter arms 9mm revolver. worst handgun that i’ve ever shot, a taurus is light years ahead in feel and quality. the c.a. left my shooting hand bruised and bloodied.

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You definitely want to stay away from the Charter Arms Magpug, with the XL frame in .41 Remington Magnum !

golden said:

Fiv5r

I wonder if you are getting what you think you are?
I think that the problem with snub nose, big bore revolvers is the velocity. I cannot believe that a round going less than 700 fps will expand. You cannot raise velocity much (not in a small frame like the Pug) without lowering the bullet weight, which I notice, no one seems to be mentioning. Are you really getting a useful firearm?

I had a 2.75 inch barreled S&W model 24 .44 Special and the velocity was so low, I sold the gun off. I had to question whether it was anymore effective than a snub nose .38 Special loaded with +P hollow points.
My present snub nose load is the FEDERAL .38 Special +P 130 grain HST, which really will expand, but it is moving at least 150 fps or more, faster than either a .44 Special or .45ACP standard load (NOTE: I AM EXCLUDING THE SUPER, HOT BOTIQUE LOADS WHICH RECOIL LIKE A .357 MAGNUM OR WORSE).

If one of these big bores does not need to expand because it is already a .44 or .45, your logic is missing something. The HST load that I use can expand to over .60 caliber and can be used in a smaller, more concealable gun and kicks less in a steel frame J-frame.

You can go higher pressure and get higher velocities, but at a price. I had a .44 magnum 2.75 inch revolver and it was just painful to shoot full power loads, evan after MAGNA PORTING and installing rubber grips.
I used to load it with .44 Special Silvertips, but was I getting a really CONCEALABLE snub nose? I could and have carried a 4 inch .357 magnum revolver instead, a much more effective weapon.
In the end, it just did not make sense to me. I sold off my few "big bore" snub noses and stick with the HST load in .38 Special.

If I were going to carry a .45ACP snub nose, I think I would go for a lightweight bullet, but more likely, I would get the gun with a 4 inch barrel!

Just my experience,

Jim

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I believe Fiv3r knows exactly what he got !

An interesting article on the C/A "Pitbull", in .45 ACP:

https://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2015/08/charter-arms-new-pitbull-revolver-in-45-acp/

Comparision in a 4" - S&W 625, in .45 ACP :

https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearms/model-625-jm

7.2" 0AL vs 9.4" 0AL - $ 506.80 vs $ 979.00 - 22 oz. vs 40.5 oz.

Indiana,

Did you notice in that Personal Defense World review, they only listed the velocity for the fastest, lightest load. One of my points is that the LOW VELOCITY with full weight bullets offsets any advantage in larger caliber. If you want a big bore, get a gun big enough to handle those loads and still be controllable.
My Bulldog was horrible to shoot with some 240 grain reloads going over 900 fps from that 3 inch barrel, 19 ounce gun.
With WINCHESTER Silvertips, it was much better, but I wonder if I was getting any more effective ammo than my S&W model 36 loaded with FEDERAL HST .38 Special 130 grain ammo. Based on the expansion tests of the HST round, probably not! Would a 230 grain .45ACP do any better?

And all this with much more recoil.

Jim

Excellent review. I was headed out to purchase a CA in the morning but instead got a chance to purchase my Taurus back and I did so. Interesting comments on stopping power, my guess was that a 45 ACP would do the job, its working for what... over 100 years. Most of the time just having Something is better than reaching in you pocket for,.... nothing.