Give me some ideas for a beginner's pistol please

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CMV

CMV

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Doing some "intro to shooting" type sessions with some church members in near future. People who have fired a gun never/once. This will be at a private range, very casual atmosphere. Goal is to cover basic safety, how handle a firearm, basic operation of the gun, basic pistol marksmanship, etc.

What I want to do when it comes to actual shooting is start them with a .22LR pistol, let them get comfortable with that, then move up to a full size (but mild shooting) 9mm pistol like a VP9 or P320.

Problem is I only have a U22 Neos & 22/45LITE for 22 pistols. While either would be fine if that's all they were going to shoot, I don't think either is a good building block to go to full size, higher caliber.

So what I think I'm after is something like a M&P 22, M9-22, etc. I just don't know what's out there or what would be good as far as having a very similar feel to a novice shooter. I'd like the 22 to feel and operate a lot like the 9mm. i.e. I think it would be a step backward to go from the way you'd load & operate 22/45 LITE, then once you're comfortable with that you have to re-learn and do things a different way when handed a CZ P-10C or whatever. Or you go from the small grip and top-heavy U22 to an M9.

Oh....and I don't want to spend a whole lot. $300ish?

What they would transition to I'm not sure. I'm thinking a larger size gun would be best vs something like an LC9, P365, or P938. Even someone with smaller hands (2/3 will be female), I think it would be better with something not toward the micro end of the spectrum. What I have to choose from in that area are:

Sig P226
Canik TP9
Beretta M9
Sig P320
Walther P99

A little smaller:
HK VP9
CZ P10C
Sig P229

A little smaller:
Taurus PT111 G2

So whatever the .22LR "starter gun" is, it should pair well with one of those - transition to it without feeling like something totally foreign to them - if that makes sense. Hard to think like a beginner and in terms of what would be best for them.

Maybe I'm way off - you won't hurt my feelings if you tell me I'm wrong - but I think something small & light like a Ruger SR22 or Walther P22 would be bad to start with if the goal is to get a larger 9mm in your hands at end of the day. Even if the controls are similar, seems it would be intimidating going from small & light to big & heavy. Last thing I want to do is scare someone off or have it be a bad experience for them. When it comes to the actual shooting I want it to be "oh that's not as scary or difficult as I thought" with the .22 so it builds confidence, then let them build up from that.
 
What’s to relearn? You still have to point it at the target and pull the trigger. I believe most people can find the trigger on pretty much any gun.
I could maybe see a problem with going from a revolver to an autoloader, but even then, most people could figure it out.
I do agree you don’t want to scare anyone off. I would think you would want to stay away from small snappy guns.
 
What budget?

Thankfully guns are at their best prices ever.

I like the M&P line. But all brands have all sorts.

Having made the mistake of learning with a sub compact, I’d say, don’t do that. Have them start with a full size gun. Or at the least a larger compact. They have less recoil and they’ll shoot it more.
 
Beretta makes a 22 clone of the 92/96 for 300ish. I have no experience with one other than feeling of one in the store though.
Sig makes the mosquito for 200, a 3/4 scale 226/220. I have lots of experience with those. Not a terrific gun but most will run with decent ammo. sig took their name off if it now and it's a gsg firefly
Walther has a 22 version of their bigger guns too.
Browning and a few others make 1911s (usually scaled down) in 22 in that price range
 
I've had good results from starting shooters on either a semi-auto .22 or a S&W 686 (loaded with 38sp). I used to go for the .22, but I'm starting to think a true novice gets along better with a revolver; there's less to learn up front. Note, however, that I've never taught a class, just individuals. I can see how if you're teaching a group you want to explain things once and then get everyone out to the firing line.

I think when shooting for the first time the first step is the biggest - just pulling the trigger for the first time. I therefore want to do everything possible to make getting to that first shot easy. After that you can scale up at the speed the student is comfortable with.
 
The M&P 22 would seem to fit the bill, and M&P handguns in larger calibers are extremely popular and pretty affordable so it could lead straight into those pistols. When they do make the move up I wouldn't go smaller than the 15rd/4" pistols like the G19 or 2.0 Compact - they're a lot easier to learn on than the Shield/43 type of pistols.
 
Be careful. Some of your choices are way n of 300. Not sure the goal. For fun and a nice time i would so a buckmark or ruger in 22. For 9 I would jump to a block 19. Easy to shoot and nothing fancy. With more inexperienced though I would chose a single six and a blackhawk. Your ? Got confusing to me.
 
I'm interested in the same subject which I would consider to be teaching "basic firearms literacy." My advice is not to be cheap, boring, dirty or condescending. Forget about .22LR. With respect to handguns, I would look at full-size frames, centerfire, and in a variety of action types. One gun is enough to get started, but you'd want to have a few more eventually.

Choose full-size because for this purpose the user is not trying to carry or conceal. Compact guns are harder to hold properly, more recoil is felt, the sight radius is shorter. They compromise for ease of carry and concealment. The fullsize grip frame fits people better and doesn't leave them with an awkward two-finger grip or insufficient space for the support hand.

A good first gun would be a DA/SA automatic with a manual safety that can be converted to a decocker. With this, you can demonstrate the manual of arms for SA in condition 1 and 3, and DA/SA in condition 2. Iconic examples could be variants of the Beretta 92, Sig P226, and CZ 75.

A 1911 or a DA revolver would be a good second gun. With a 1911, you can convert the DA/SA to a decocker. At some point you'll want to add a revolver and the one that makes the most sense is a S&W K-frame able to shoot .38 Special.

Although striker-fired guns are the most popular, they're the least interesting. A Glock 17 is de rigueur, but you could probably be forgiven for substituting an M&P or your P320.

A curriculum would not be complete without a SA revolver. The traditional Colt/clone action is the most authentic, but you would be ok with a Ruger that might be a little more durable and safer in the hands of a learner.

If you are concerned about assisting especially recoil-sensitive people, consider that the all-metal, short-recoil operated guns in 9mm are pretty low in felt recoil. For the most sensitive who might not shoot anything more than a .22LR, use the K-frame and load some extremely light .38's with Trail Boss or some wadcutters with a little bit of Titegroup.
 
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I took it to mean he already has the list of full size guns. He was looking for a 22 for 300ish to start them on then progress to the already available full size that complimented that model

Maybe I misunderstood but I doubt he is expecting a 22 and full size pair for 300 bucks.... especially with Sig, HK, and beretta being mentioned

I have started people off with the mosquito then 226. As well as a 21a then 96. Also a single six then blackhawk,
 
The 9mm listed are what I have that I think would be suitable to transition to - not something I'd have to buy. The .22 is all I am buying.
 
Also...I love and shoot regularly with a beretta 96, HK usp, Sig 226 and full size glocks (pre gen4 with different backstraps). I'm also 6 foot 3 and 200 lbs. If I had a group of 2/3 women I might consider something slightly smaller. 220 over 226 etc. Ive heard many more people (not just women either) complain about the grip being too big on those than not.
 
rskent said:
What’s to relearn? You still have to point it at the target and pull the trigger. I believe most people can find the trigger on pretty much any gun.
I could maybe see a problem with going from a revolver to an autoloader, but even then, most people could figure it out.
I do agree you don’t want to scare anyone off. I would think you would want to stay away from small snappy guns.
Click to expand...

How to load, unload, chamber a round, engage safety, does it have a safety, etc. More to it for someone who has never handled a weapon than just "point & shoot". Might not be an issue at all - just my thoughts that it would be simpler if they were very similar.


Gridley said:
I've had good results from starting shooters on either a semi-auto .22 or a S&W 686 (loaded with 38sp). I used to go for the .22, but I'm starting to think a true novice gets along better with a revolver; there's less to learn up front. Note, however, that I've never taught a class, just individuals. I can see how if you're teaching a group you want to explain things once and then get everyone out to the firing line.

I think when shooting for the first time the first step is the biggest - just pulling the trigger for the first time. I therefore want to do everything possible to make getting to that first shot easy. After that you can scale up at the speed the student is comfortable with.
Click to expand...

I would MUCH rather do revolvers for the simplicity. My initial thought was just that & full size gun they move up to is GP100 with lighter .38 loads. BUT......let's say it takes & they decide to go get something of their own. Chances are they're gonna pick - or the guy behind the counter at LGS is going to steer them toward - an autoloader. Not that it's the end of the world, but get familiarized with the more complex one, then if they end up buying similar, they know a little about it. I could very well be over-thinking it
 
crestoncowboy said:
Also...I love and shoot regularly with a beretta 96, HK usp, Sig 226 and full size glocks (pre gen4 with different backstraps). I'm also 6 foot 3 and 200 lbs. If I had a group of 2/3 women I might consider something slightly smaller. 220 over 226 etc. Ive heard many more people (not just women either) complain about the grip being too big on those than not.
Click to expand...

My P220 is .45ACP. That is an option & hadn't really considered it. To me I don't find recoil any worse on a P220 vs a P226.....but would say it feels softer/different/better comparing a VP9 9mm to a P220 .45ACP. That could all be in my head or I'm not at all thinking in terms of a beginner with poor/undeveloped basics like grip either. I do agree M9 grips are overly large so probably a poor choice just due to that - lots of people I know, men included, dislike the feel of that but don't mind a PPQ or similar at all.

And several of mine I could go with the smaller grip inserts they came with - that might be a good idea too considering average hand size of group probably a bit smaller than mine.
 
I do a lot of intro lessons. Friends wives and girl friends, family friends etc. One good hammer bite or piece of shrapnel or even hot brass down between two dd cups and you may make them hate it forever. You aren't over thinking anything. If they have fun they may be a shooter for life. Women tend to shoot slow as heck but in my experience tend to be meticulous about sight picture and inherently better shots than men as beginners actually. Weak small hands and trigger fingers are the bigger concern. The smallest guy I ever taught loved the full size beretta. He eventually fired over 100 rounds through my 500 and 460 in a day. Just this year another friend and employee of mine who is 6 foot and a glock fan tried my USP, 96 and 226 and said the HK and Beretta felt too big.so Don't assume. He is looking for the right 226 now.
 
CMV said:
I would MUCH rather do revolvers for the simplicity. My initial thought was just that & full size gun they move up to is GP100 with lighter .38 loads. BUT......let's say it takes & they decide to go get something of their own. Chances are they're gonna pick - or the guy behind the counter at LGS is going to steer them toward - an autoloader. Not that it's the end of the world, but get familiarized with the more complex one, then if they end up buying similar, they know a little about it. I could very well be over-thinking it
Click to expand...

I would pick a gun range that rents guns that way as the students progress so can the platform they shoot. If y’all where in my neck of the woods I’d let you use mine. I have a special edition Ruger that has the same controls as a full size.
 
A couple of axioms to remember:
  • Bigger, heavier guns are nicer to shoot, and less likely to "teach" a new shooter to flinch. Steel-framed guns are best.
  • Controls are easy to learn to manipulate. Triggers aren't. A nice/easy trigger is likely to lead to less frustration from an inability to pull the trigger straight to the rear.
The business about the 22 and the 9mm needing to feel "the same" isn't valid, IMO. New shooters aren't going to be developing any kind of index, so having a different grip angle won't matter. Commonality of controls and an ability to carry over the basic grip (i.e., not a Sig P22x where you have to grip differently because of the placement of the slide release) are helpful. Don't get caught up in the other stuff.
 
I see how that sounded like a recommendation for the 220. I was only talking about grip size though. Some hate the snappier recoil. Some hate the push. My wife shoots my 44 mag redhawk but curses every 40, 10mm or 357 sig I've let her shoot. She likes the 45 1911s but got a little mad over my 10mm versions. May depend on the day
 
ATLDave said:
A couple of axioms to remember:
  • Bigger, heavier guns are nicer to shoot, and less likely to "teach" a new shooter to flinch. Steel-framed guns are best.
  • Controls are easy to learn to manipulate. Triggers aren't. A nice/easy trigger is likely to lead to less frustration from an inability to pull the trigger straight to the rear.
The business about the 22 and the 9mm needing to feel "the same" isn't valid, IMO. New shooters aren't going to be developing any kind of index, so having a different grip angle won't matter. Commonality of controls and an ability to carry over the basic grip (i.e., not a Sig P22x where you have to grip differently because of the placement of the slide release) are helpful. Don't get caught up in the other stuff.
Click to expand...

The bold part is exactly what I mean by "feel the same". Similar (not necessarily exact) overall size and control placement is what I'm thinking.

The P226 is a Legion so a little heavier & weighs pretty much same as M9. Feels heavier with different balance, but I think they're close. But their grips are roughly the same overall size so probably rule both those out.
 
Are there conversion kits for any of your full-sized 9mm pistols? Maybe the Beretta or Sig?
 
As far as the range recommendation I'm guessing this is more informal backyard training. I know mine are. I.e. More hickock45 than glock police training academy (from what ive seen that place looks awesome when my rich uncle gets out of the poor house i am building me one like it in my 3rd floor. Pool table be damned Lol. ) I could be wrong though. I also don't grip a sig 22x any different than the 50 or so other guns ive trained with, the mosquito has a slightly more outswept slide release and needed modified (aka bent in with a good hit) to get a decent high grip or I could hit it up into the slide) . Although if one had fatter fingers I could see it being a problem. Mine are long skinny fingers. Either way almost all females that have shot my 96/usp/ desert eagle or 226 (and I'd guess that's 30 or more) have said they were too fat. Even my mom and she is close to 6 foot. If you can't palm a basketball those three are pretty close to the limit IMO. A lot of them have really liked and been accurate with the slimmer 1911s. A gun I don't personally care as much for. Having a variety is a good plan.

I do agree that having the same style isn't terribly important for an intro type lesson. Fundamentals carry over. More important if they are seriously training to get good with a particular platform and using it quickly. Ive only met two females that preferred a revolver. One bought a dw 357 maximum for her carry gun. Lol
 
Lots of good advice here on the guns. My 2 cents...easy to shoot revolvers in 22 and 38 special. What’s also important is to have a positive experience, even a little fun. Bullseye targets are boring. Steel plates and baseball sized hard rubber targets that dance when they’re hit are more fun. Put the emphasis on a SAFE good time and they’ll want to come back. My kids and their friends sure did!
Good luck.
Kcace
 
Just my 2 cents, I would stick with revolvers. They're much safer and easier to shoot for ppl that have never ever fired a gun. They don't have to be single action revolvers but I think that they should shoot them single action. A .22 and then a light load in a .38 special, with at least a 4" barrel so not to have excessive recoil and/or muzzle blast. Semi auto's are much harder to shoot especially with any proficiency, even for ppl that have some firearm experience, most don't have safeties, they have trigger travel and other properties that make it tougher on a complete newbie as compared to the nice crisp trigger of a revolver being fired single action. Just my opinion.
 
You don't say how many shooters or how many guns, unless I missed it.
You should not have students standing around waiting to shoot as their interest/concentration will drift away to boredom...or their cell phones.
I suggest you have enough guns for everyone to shoot at the same time and equal amount of instructors to watch/coach them.
If the group is small, never mind :uhoh:
:D
 
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