Cleanliness is next to Godliness.

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FlSwampRat

FlSwampRat

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Since he always cleaned his revolver at work, never saw my father clean a gun. My first lesson in gun cleaning came from my drill sgt. in basic training. I distinctly remember him asking if I had the desire to be a farmer because "You could grow potatoes in that barrel, maggot!"
Cleaned my 16 with patches, brushes and pipe cleaners. My boss, the owner of the pawn business for where I work, probably thinks I'm overly OCD about cleaning guns coming out of pawn but my basic training stayed with me regarding my own guns and I don't want to hand a "for sale" gun to someone and have them need to wipe their hands after.
I know I'm overly fastidious about clean firearms but that's the way I am.
All that said, one day the boss was at the range and another shooter seemed to be having difficulty with his Glock not cycling right. Bossman offered to take a look at the guy's firearm and handed it back, directing him to bring it to the store I manage for a good cleaning.
No joke, I was scraping carbon off of his feed ramp as if it was an exhaust valve from a old truck.
Why someone would spend multiple Benjamins on a fine firearm and then neglect it. A Hamilton would buy a cleaning kit and few minutes the night after a range visit would keep that gun running just fine. Beyond me.
The attached picture is the dirty leavings after cleaning that one Glock.
 

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Hah, u should see how most guns are kept here. It would make your skin crawl!

Admittedly, I'm a bit of a clean freak about my guns as well. Mostly because an uncleaned gun in Hawaii is a rusty gun. My father in-laws gun gets cleaned when I'm home, which is about once a year, he also quite happily makes fun of my guns for not being rusty or scratched up.
 
Clean beats neglect, but I would like to add something about excessive cleaning. A lot of military rifles, especially in the m16 family have seen their lifespan cut dramatically short primarily as a result of damage to the rifling from cleaning. Barrels worn far more from rods stuck down them to clean every last spec of dirt than from bullets grinding down the rifling.
This is particularly fast to wear out the muzzle end of the rifling as the rod is pushed in and out and essentially flares out the rifling in the opening.

Between that and how many armories stored weapons with something in the barrel or resting on a steel rod has cut the life short on many military rifles around the world long before they fired enough rounds to wear the barrel out.

Each stroke where the steel part of a steel cleaning rod touches the rifling probably wears the rifling more than many rounds of ammunition does.


That said pride in taking care of tools is a great thing and serves you well in having working quality tools while others are constantly replacing. When you take good care of things you also come to appreciate quality more, because you actually keep them functioning until the design limitations are reached.
 
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I fall somewhere in the middle between you and the guy with the carboniferous Glock. My carry guns are absolutely spotless because I don't want GSR getting in my clothing. But I'm to the point where I don't have to clean my range use only guns every single time I shoot them. I can also now leave the burn rings showing on my stainless steel revolvers without having a panic attack.
 
I bet I have a Glock that dirty, but it’s nothing more lubricant won’t fix. When more lube doesn’t do it, then I’ll clean it.
 
Zoogster said:
Clean beats neglect, but I would like to add something about excessive cleaning. A lot of military rifles, especially in the m16 family have seen their lifespan cut dramatically short primarily as a result of damage to the rifling from cleaning. Barrels worn far more from rods stuck down them to clean every last spec of dirt than from bullets grinding down the rifling.
This is particularly fast to wear out the muzzle end of the rifling as the rod is pushed in and out and essentially flares out the rifling in the opening.
Click to expand...
Which is why I clean, where possible, from the breech end. Hard to do on my wheel guns.
Each stroke where the steel part of a steel cleaning rod touches the rifling probably wears the rifling more than many rounds of ammunition does.
Click to expand...
Which is why I use aluminum rods and plastic jags. I don't scrub every iota of residue, I stop when a patch comes out clean. Kinda like how my mom taught me to check if a cake was done by sticking a toothpick in it.
That said pride in taking care of tools is a great thing and serves you well in having working quality tools while others are constantly replacing. When you take good care of things you also come to appreciate quality more, because you actually keep them functioning until the design limitations are reached.
Click to expand...
Zoogster, your points are well taken and I agree. maintaining a firearm includes not abusing it by careless or unneeded cleaning.I appreciate my guns, and more, all the things I own as they didn't just fall into my lap, I traded hours of my life in the form of hard earned pay for all of them. Hard earned you ask? Yeah, I deal with the public. 'Nuff said.
 
Which is why I use aluminum rods...
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Aluminum oxide is sapphire--an extremely hard abrasive. Coated rods that are kept very clean (to insure there is no grit/crud on them) are best.
 
GunnyUSMC said:
I remember the days of cleaning my M16A1 to the point that it Would pass a q-tip inspection.
But no one is inspecting my guns now days other then me.
I keep them clean but not spotless.
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Right Gunny, I doubt any of my guns would pass my Drill's q-tip test nowadays, but they are cleaner than most I see come in pawn. (Ye gods! what an understatement!).
I used to draw my 16 from the armory when I had CQ and I'd clean it. Gave me something to do at 2 AM in Germany with no radio or TV.
 
I clean mine after every shoot or quarterly if they don't make it to the range. USMC habits die hard. I still use q-tips with the long sticks (they get in hard to reach places easily). I do not punch the bore to the degree we did during my time in service and I am switching over to bore snakes. I like them for their ease and in my opinion they are less destructive than rods and swatches. None of my weapons will pass an inspection more than likely but they are very clean, oiled, and fully functional.
 
Funny you mention cleaning to a drill instructor's satisfaction. When we were leaving basic, everyone had to clean their rifles before we could go. My DI kept rejecting my M-14, said the gas piston wasn't clean enough. I went to a far corner, took out my pocket knife, and scraped metal off the aluminum piston until it was bright all around.

He looked at it and held it up as a shining example as to how he wanted them all to look. I grabbed my stuff and beat it, always wondered if that rifle functioned afterwards.
 
FlSwampRat said:
I used to draw my 16 from the armory when I had CQ and I'd clean it. Gave me something to do at 2 AM in Germany with no radio or TV.
Click to expand...

My entire military career I have never been in a unit that allowed an individual troop to decide to draw their weapon from The Arms Room
 
The problem with the military is it it's full of people who know nothing about guns trying to teach other people about how to maintain and use a gun.

I will never forget the first time I got issued an M16A2, I read the - 10 which explicitly stated that the weapon was to be stored with a light coat of CLP on it and if the CLP had been applied properly you would get Carbon on your fingers if you wiped down the gun.

I showed that page to the unit armor he said I don't care the IG wants it immaculate.

I clean my Glocks when I go to the range. I spray them down with Break Free I let them sit for an hour then I wipe them off and punch the bore with a patch.
 
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Zoogster said:
Clean beats neglect, but I would like to add something about excessive cleaning. A lot of military rifles, especially in the m16 family have seen their lifespan cut dramatically short primarily as a result of damage to the rifling from cleaning. Barrels worn far more from rods stuck down them to clean every last spec of dirt than from bullets grinding down the rifling.
This is particularly fast to wear out the muzzle end of the rifling as the rod is pushed in and out and essentially flares out the rifling in the opening.

Between that and how many armories stored weapons with something in the barrel or resting on a steel rod has cut the life short on many military rifles around the world long before they fired enough rounds to wear the barrel out.

Each stroke where the steel part of a steel cleaning rod touches the rifling probably wears the rifling more than many rounds of ammunition does.


That said pride in taking care of tools is a great thing and serves you well in having working quality tools while others are constantly replacing. When you take good care of things you also come to appreciate quality more, because you actually keep them functioning until the design limitations are reached.
Click to expand...

I've always wondered about pushing a metal brush down the barrel of a gun in order to clean the residue out. I guess my gut instincts were right in that, the less you have to push that rod through a barrel in order to "scrape" it clean the better. I always, always eyeball the barrel before I clean it. In other words, just how dirty is the barrel? If it still shines from the light, but just has some particles/residue from the burnt powder, I DO NOT push a rod/metal brush through it. Nope, I simply put a cleaning patch onto a brass rod, put some CLP on the cleaning patch, and push it through the barrel. The barrel then literally shines like brand new. Why scrape when you don't have to?
 
I don't consider a dirty gun neglected. I have dirty guns in my safe that have not been cleaned in years. They were oiled when I stored them and get wiped down a time or two a year. A little carbon has caused them no harm.

I have a few that I have never cleaned, among them a Colt National Match and Smith 686. Each has had over 3k rounds. I wear the soot like a badge of honor.
 
I'm in the group that keeps their stuff clean, but doesn't go nuts over it.
After all, I wash and vacuum the car now and then, but I don't break out the tire-shine, carpet cleaner, steam the undercarriage, and grease the door hinges every time.
For me, everything at least gets wiped down and the bolt/breach face and rails cleaned and oiled after a range trip. As much to avoid Florida conditions as actual cleaning. From there it goes through a range: anything that shoots something corrosive gets Windexed, wiped down and out, windexed again, dried, and oiled; carry guns and most rifles get at least a quick cleaning and oiled; .22s get cleaned thoroughly when groups start opening up or they start feeling like gravel is involved.

For that matter, I worked with a couple vets that just about ignored the daily issues in life (in retail, no less) but would blow steam any time they got around to the inspections on returning rifles...
 
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I used to be meticulous about cleaning my guns when I first got out of the Navy. Aboard ship I helped out in the Armory. After a while I realized that I was probably doing more harm than good in regards to the barrels so I back off the process. I will not use a steel cleaning rod and I always inspect my rods for imbedded debris that might scar my barrels.

My guns are clean enough. Not Qtip clean, but clean enough.
 
FlSwampRat said:
Since he always cleaned his revolver at work, never saw my father clean a gun. My first lesson in gun cleaning came from my drill sgt. in basic training. I distinctly remember him asking if I had the desire to be a farmer because "You could grow potatoes in that barrel, maggot!"
Cleaned my 16 with patches, brushes and pipe cleaners. My boss, the owner of the pawn business for where I work, probably thinks I'm overly OCD about cleaning guns coming out of pawn but my basic training stayed with me regarding my own guns and I don't want to hand a "for sale" gun to someone and have them need to wipe their hands after.
I know I'm overly fastidious about clean firearms but that's the way I am.
All that said, one day the boss was at the range and another shooter seemed to be having difficulty with his Glock not cycling right. Bossman offered to take a look at the guy's firearm and handed it back, directing him to bring it to the store I manage for a good cleaning.
No joke, I was scraping carbon off of his feed ramp as if it was an exhaust valve from a old truck.
Why someone would spend multiple Benjamins on a fine firearm and then neglect it. A Hamilton would buy a cleaning kit and few minutes the night after a range visit would keep that gun running just fine. Beyond me.
The attached picture is the dirty leavings after cleaning that one Glock.
Click to expand...
I cannot unsee those patches. They are burned into my brain. He really owes you a debt of gratitude. He knows better now.
 
It is pretty simple. Harder damages softer. Brass and aluminum are much softer than chrome-molybdenum steel. Patches are not even worth mentioning. You can’t damage 4140 or stainless gun barrels with a brass or aluminum cleaning rod or brush. Unpossible, period. Folks use brass pliers and scrapers to remove stuck plastic parts from highly polished, million dollar steel injection molding tools for just that reason. Just forget about hurting your gun barrel with a soft metal cleaning rod or jag, no matter how tight. Muzzle end, breech end, no difference. False myths.

As far as anodized aluminum is concerned, the surface is hard. But aluminum cleaning rods aren’t likely anodized anyway. A non-issue.
 
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As far as anodized aluminum is concerned, the surface is hard. But aluminum cleaning rods aren’t likely anodized anyway. A non-issue.
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Anodizing is a process that builds up an abnormally thick layer of aluminum oxide on an aluminum surface. However, any unfinished aluminum will form a thin oxide layer if exposed to the atmosphere and, although it's thinner than the layer made by anodizing, it is just as hard and just as abrasive.
You can’t damage 4140 or stainless gun barrels with a brass or aluminum cleaning rod or brush. Unpossible, period.
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Although softer metals generally can't scratch or wear harder metals, there are some misconceptions about how hard various metals are in practice. There is considerable overlap between the harder brass/bronze alloys and softer steel alloys. If you poke around a little, it's not hard to verify that gun barrels, especially rimfire barrels can be very soft--certainly softer than some of the harder brass/bronze alloys.

http://rceco.com/img/RSBook14.PDF
"AISI 12L14 is often used for .22 Long Rifle rimfire barrels. This steel has a hardness of 84 Rb. The steel is soft enough that the B scale must be used as the C scale would not be accurate. C12L14 is a low carbon steel and cannot be thermally hardened. It machines very easily and takes a good finish but isn’t tough enough to be used for higher pressure cartridges."​

For reference, 84RB is significantly softer than 15RC--so soft it's off the bottom of the RC chart. Some of the hardest bronze/brass alloys can approach 20RC, and even phosphor bronze--a common bore brush material--can be as hard as 104RB, significantly harder than 84RB.

Here's another source.

http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/barrel_making/details_of_accuracy.htm

"After a barrel has been taken from the furnace Lilja tests the steel for hardness. A Rockwell hardness of 24 to 25 is about right for a good accuracy life, he said."​

It's not hard to find other sources that confirm RC figures below (often WELL below) 25 RC are typical for rimfire barrels. Notice that Lilja is a premium rimfire barrel maker and only works toward a hardness in the mid 20s.

Finally, if there's any grit embedded in a soft metal rod, the rod will act like a lap and can damage harder metals that it rubs against.

That doesn't mean we're all doomed to ruin our guns by cleaning them, but it's information that's worth keeping in mind. The idea that using aluminum or brass/bronze cleaning equipment makes it impossible to damage a steel gun barrel is absolutely incorrect. It's important to avoid rubbing the rod and fittings against the rifling even if they are made of metals that are softer than the barrel steel.
 
JohnKSa said:
Anodizing is a process that builds up an abnormally thick layer of aluminum oxide on an aluminum surface. However, any unfinished aluminum will form a thin oxide layer if exposed to the atmosphere and, although it's thinner than the layer made by anodizing, it is just as hard and just as abrasive.Although softer metals generally can't scratch harder metals, there are some misconceptions about how hard various metals are in practice. There is considerable overlap between the harder brass/bronze alloys and softer steel alloys. If you poke around a little, it's not hard to verify that gun barrels, especially rimfire barrels can be very soft--certainly softer than some of the harder brass/bronze alloys.

Finally, if there's any grit embedded in a soft metal rod, the rod will act like a lap and can damage harder metals that it rubs against.

That doesn't mean we're all doomed to ruin our guns by cleaning them, but it's information that's worth keeping in mind. The idea that using aluminum or brass/bronze cleaning equipment makes it impossible to damage a steel gun barrel is absolutely incorrect. It's important to avoid rubbing the rod and fittings against the rifling even if they are made of metals that are softer than the barrel steel.
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You make some good points, but I disagree with your conclusions. It is like eroding a mountain by wind and rain. Does it happen? Sure. On a human time scale? Not hardly.

Modern barrel steels are not going to be harmed by clean brass tools. This isn’t 1850. At least not in my safe.
 
Modern barrel steels are not going to be harmed by clean brass tools.
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I added some information to my post just as you must have been quoting it. Unfortunately the first link has gone defunct since I found it some years back.

Your qualified statement (limited to clean tools and eliminating aluminum) is more accurate, but still not quite correct.

Clean brass tools are unlikely to damage centerfire steel barrels. There is some potential for clean brass tools to damage rimfire barrels.

Again, this isn't about trying to prove that anyone who cleans their guns assiduously is doomed to ruin them with cleaning rod wear--but it's good information to have. It's much better to understand that good barrel cleaning technique is still important regardless of what kind of cleaning tools one chooses to use than it is to incorrectly assume that there's no possibility for damage.
 
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