huntsman
Member
I didn’t want a safety so I paid more for a Shield9 without, why compromise?
Personally I don’t buy into the fear of striker guns and AD.
Personally I don’t buy into the fear of striker guns and AD.
S&W Shield Safety ?
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Jeb Stuart
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I have a safety on a LC9S and SR9c and actually always like the placement. I trained many hours using them. That said, I have moved away from light trigger and only DAO now. Still have both pistols.
bannockburn
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Jeb Stuart
Couldn't quite make the reach to the safety without changing my grip. It was just a little too far back for me plus the size and shape of it wasn't all that conducive to easy access.
No matter, I just treat the SR9c like it didn't have the safety and use it accordingly.
Couldn't quite make the reach to the safety without changing my grip. It was just a little too far back for me plus the size and shape of it wasn't all that conducive to easy access.
No matter, I just treat the SR9c like it didn't have the safety and use it accordingly.
Jeb Stuart
member
That is what I never figured out about folks that hate safeties, if you do not want to use it, you don't. I guess some folks just hate options. Nice to know it is there if you want it.
Styx
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I always get a chuckle out of the comments about not being able to turn off or remember to turn off the safety during a a self defense situation because of adrenaline and impaired motor skills... People can and have been able to draw, line up sights, and pull the trigger several times, reload, drop the slide, and repeat all under pressure, but for some reason, they just won't be able to swip off a safety...
Using thar logic, I guess carrying reloads are pointless too because reloading under pressure takes a lot more fine motor skills than turning off a safety... Seems like people hear stuff on the inet and regurgitate it.
I don't like safeties, but I'm not against them.
Using thar logic, I guess carrying reloads are pointless too because reloading under pressure takes a lot more fine motor skills than turning off a safety... Seems like people hear stuff on the inet and regurgitate it.
I don't like safeties, but I'm not against them.
GunnyUSMC
Member
How many shootings have you been in? All I will say is that you really don’t know what will happen until it does.
Myself, I am not against manual safeties on guns. I just don’t want one on my carry gun for the sake of simplicity.
Now there are guns that I want a manual safety on, like a 1911.
But like Jeb said. He trains with what he carries and that is what counts. Just because you own a gun doesn’t make you ready for a fight. Or if you owned a scalpel it won’t make you a surgeon.
My 4 primaries.
Ruger LCP - No Safety
Ruger EC9S - Made some slight mods to "tighten" up the safety (Moved a little easy for my peace of mind)
Shield .45 - Stiff enough it's never even thought about moving.
M&P M2.0 Compact .40 - No Safety
I don't use them on Stiker Fired or DAO Pistols but I don't care enough one way or another to pay extra for delete. As long as the are stiff enough and small enough they don't move anyway. That's why machine tools were invented. I could be wrong but adjusting size and detent pressure are not the same as deleting (legally).
Ruger LCP - No Safety
Ruger EC9S - Made some slight mods to "tighten" up the safety (Moved a little easy for my peace of mind)
Shield .45 - Stiff enough it's never even thought about moving.
M&P M2.0 Compact .40 - No Safety
I don't use them on Stiker Fired or DAO Pistols but I don't care enough one way or another to pay extra for delete. As long as the are stiff enough and small enough they don't move anyway. That's why machine tools were invented. I could be wrong but adjusting size and detent pressure are not the same as deleting (legally).
Styx
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How many have you been in with a safety equipt handgun where you forget or was unable to swipe the safety off? The key is training. You don't have to be in dozens of firefights to know that it makes zero sense that someone can do several more complicated maneuvers like pull a gun out the holster, maybe get a sight picture, pull the trigger, press the mag release, grap another mag, put it in the gun, drop the slide, and get back on target, and repeat, but can't swip off a safety... Just isn't logical.
Jeb Stuart
member
Muscle and mind memory is actually a amazing part of the nature of the human mind. Much like knowing a key board and how things just become natural. Drive one car all the time and easy to go right to the Transmission shift without thinking. Get in a different car and most people will have to look at it after grabbing it.
People say that folks that use a safety might forget. Sorry, Can't buy that. Train over and over and over, and it is just like putting your hand on the grip quickly. It becomes just part of the same. Every time I picked up the gun with the safety, I would have the same movement, even if just cleaning the gun, or for any reason to pick it up. Would I forget to do this in a gun fight? Maybe, but about as likely as forgetting to handle the grip or the gun completely. But seriously, no, it is as natural as blinking.
Interesting that same muscle/mind memory does not seem to be able to go away. I now shoot a lot of rounds in training with a Beretta Nano DAO. And guess what? Every time I pick up the Nano or draw the gun, that same movement of going for the safety just naturally occurs even through there is no safety. And it is something I do not try and correct. In fact, I still shoot my other guns with the safety to just keep that learned movement active in my mind and memory.
Now what does occur is when I train with my SR22. Some one must have been high on something in the engineering and design department because they made the safety in the opposite direction. Drives me crazy.And a gun with a safety like that would or could get me killed.
. I like the DAO and if someone came along and put a safety on my Nano, it would not bother me at all, simply because there is the imaginary safety there in my mind anyway.
People say that folks that use a safety might forget. Sorry, Can't buy that. Train over and over and over, and it is just like putting your hand on the grip quickly. It becomes just part of the same. Every time I picked up the gun with the safety, I would have the same movement, even if just cleaning the gun, or for any reason to pick it up. Would I forget to do this in a gun fight? Maybe, but about as likely as forgetting to handle the grip or the gun completely. But seriously, no, it is as natural as blinking.
Interesting that same muscle/mind memory does not seem to be able to go away. I now shoot a lot of rounds in training with a Beretta Nano DAO. And guess what? Every time I pick up the Nano or draw the gun, that same movement of going for the safety just naturally occurs even through there is no safety. And it is something I do not try and correct. In fact, I still shoot my other guns with the safety to just keep that learned movement active in my mind and memory.
Now what does occur is when I train with my SR22. Some one must have been high on something in the engineering and design department because they made the safety in the opposite direction. Drives me crazy.And a gun with a safety like that would or could get me killed.
. I like the DAO and if someone came along and put a safety on my Nano, it would not bother me at all, simply because there is the imaginary safety there in my mind anyway.
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GunnyUSMC
Member
You avoided my question, by asking the same question but adding the part about the safety. But I will answer your question. I have never been in a shooting with a handgun that had a manual safety.
Here is a story for you. Three police officers show up to a house for a domestic call one night. As they come up to the front door, it opens and a man points a gun and fires just missing one of the officers. All three officers draw and fired. The gun fight was over in less then 10 seconds.
When the investigation was over it had been discovered that only two of the officers had actually fired. The third officer said that she had fired her gun and truly believed she had fired. The bullets and cartridge cases at the scene were matched to two of the officers and the suspects guns. The officers the didn’t fire had forgotten to take the safety off before she started pulling the trigger.
But like I said, I have nothing against manual safeties, I just don’t want one on my carry gun for the sake of simplicity. If having a manual safety on a Striker Fire gun makes someone feel more confident then they should have a gun with one.
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Styx
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Here's a story for you. There was on several occasions were an officer went to draw there semiauto and shot themselves in the leg. You know what that means right? If the pistol had a safety, that likely would not have happened, so that proves my point that safeties are better... See, that's how anecdotal arguements work....
The problem wasn't the safety as admittingly in your story, the other officers were able to successfully swip off the safety and end the fight. The problem is that the one particular officer didn't have the training or muscle memory to take the safety off.
I get it though. Your argument is that since you heard a story that someone somewhere didn't train enough to remember to swip off a safety, you don't have enough faith that you'll personally be able to if you're in the situation. You want simplicity because you believe you might personally fumble around and screw up. You are also apply your anecdotal fear and assumptions to everyone else who has a safety of their firearm. That's fine and that's the great thing about this country. We all have free will and options to carry what we feel comfortable with. Some people have confidence in carrying a 1911 or other pistols with safeties that they feel that they'll be able to swip the safety off. Others, like yourself, believe they might forget. To each there own.
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Jeb Stuart
member
And then there is the question? How much training did she do? I know of two police officers right now, that cannot shoot worth a darn. I honestly do not know how they even qualify. One, the female told me she does not even use the allotted ammo offered to her on a discount for training and the other a male say's he hates shooting a firearm. Said the one part of his job he hated was having to qualify and was quite adamant about this.
And then there are very light striker fired firearms and others that have a longer, stronger pull. I do not know how Police agencies train or their requirements across the country.
All my carry guns now are all DAO. I prefer this, and if I was a LE, I would carry my own firearm if allowed. And a Da/Sa would not bother me without a safety as well.
Every person has to know the degree to which they train and their limitations.
But I would bet, the female in the scenario above did little training with the safety. Without proper diligent training, then I would say no safety would have been a better choice for her.
There is a certain DUTY for any officer or civilian to train diligently and often and be competent with their firearm. The two officers I mentioned above, that do not train often, are NOT doing their duty. To themselves, fellow police officers and to the community.
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CajunBass
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Works for me.
Jeb Stuart
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How about another 380 vs 9mm thread. I love those the best. I save up all my replies in a separate file so I can reuse them each week.
Styx
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Ask and you shall receive. This "might" turn into one. My favorites are the 40s&w debates though.
rdnktrkr
Member
My shield45 has a safety and I have never had an issue with it. I can understand the issue officers would have with speed during shootouts with their increased adrenaline, every day I release my safety when I remove it from my carry holster and put it in its safe for muscle memory.
A friend has one without a safety in 9mm and carries without one in the chamber (said that was how he was trained in the air force) I think it is quicker to release safety than chamber a round.
A friend has one without a safety in 9mm and carries without one in the chamber (said that was how he was trained in the air force) I think it is quicker to release safety than chamber a round.
GunnyUSMC
Member
Now that wasn’t much of a story.
The story I told, I know and worked with the three officers. The one that didn’t take the safety off was my Sargent at the time.I’ve heard the stories of officers discharging their weapons while drawing them. It has happened with guns that had safeties and ones without. But you should know that the problem was not about the safeties, it was lack of training or a mistake made in the heat of the moment. You have to pull the trigger to make the gun fire.
I don’t see where you see an argument coming from me. I said that I don’t have anything against manual safeties on guns, it’s just that I prefer not to have one on a carry gun. I also prefer a Striker Fire gun for carry. This is not for lack of training, faith or fear in my abilities. It’s a personal choice. Your comments come across at rude and insulting.
I have carried many guns over the years that have had manual safeties which include the Beretta M9 and the 1911A1. I also used to shoot steel challenge matches with a 1911A1. I have carried guns professional for many years.
I do find that the ones that most often argue about safeties, calibers or type of guns are the ones that have never had to use them in a life or deat situation. But that may be a good thing because, it ain’t fun being shot at.
GunnyUSMC
Member
There are many officers that don’t know much about guns and only do their required training once or twice a year. It’s a shame, but it’s the world that we live in.
My department allows us 100 rounds of ammunition every time we go to the range to practice. We have just over 700 officers on my department and maybe 100 go to the range every month to practice.
But we’re getting off subject.
The fact is that many guns are offered with or without manual safeties. We also have the guns we like.
My friend’ Dad loves the Browning Hi-Power, but carries a M&P with a manual safety. Before getting the M&P he carried DA/SA handguns. I asked him why he didn’t carry his Hi-Power, to which he said it is just to heavy at the end of the day.
From readying your past post I know that we like different types of guns. I like service size guns and you like them smaller, and we both have more the a few of the ones we like. But we both know and agree that training is very important. No matter what type of gun you like, big, or small, with a manual safety, or not, training with what you carry is very important.
So far this month we've gotten a revolver vs semiauto and safety vs no safety thread. Now we need a caliber debate thread to finish the month off.
We don't have a caliber debate (at least I don't). I simply shoot the largest caliber and bullet weight that I can shoot well in a given chassis size without unduly reducing my speed.
Micro - .380 Std Pressure 90
Subcompact A - 9mm Std Pressure 147
Subcompact B - .45 Std Pressure 185
Compact - .40 Std Pressure 180
Full Size - .45 +P 230
That only applies to me. If you shoot a .25 Micro, .32 Subcompact, .380 Compact and 9mm Full Size significantly better / faster then that's what you should shoot.
It's about maximum hits on target. Caliber and Ammo performance is secondary.
tactikel
Member
I bought my Shield 9mm because it had a manual safety. I don't feel comfortable with a striker fired pistol without a manual safety. I've been a hunter for 50+ years, mounting a long gun and swipping off a safety under stress is second nature. I carry non manual safety firearms, a LCP, and my S&W 28. If you love Glocks great, my take is that the odds of a SD situation in which a safety changes the outcome versus the possiblity of a negligent discharge makes the manual safety a must.
That being said I wish the safety was more prominent.
That being said I wish the safety was more prominent.
Jeb Stuart
member
Probably one of the most interesting post I have read in a long time. I would say Gunny that you are on the mark when you say only about 10% go to the range each month. and I would guess that the civilian population much less. And I can understand why Glocks are so popular with the Military and Police or any model without a safety. Training so many people to learn a safety would be very expensive and unrealistic. Not to mention that they just are not going to continue with training to keep up those necessary memory muscle skills. The same goes with a DA/Sa. Again, consistent training to learn that transition between the two action.
Yes, you like the larger guns, I like shooting the smaller one's. However if I were a LE, then I would obviously want to carry a Duty gun. I do not handle them on the range any were near as much as the small guns, so do not really know or could say which one I would choose. I would spend a lot of time picking out the one I want to carry. Most likely would be a Glock with a heavier trigger or a DA/SA and you can bet I would be at the range frequently.with any weapon I choose.
Friends often ask me which gun to purchase. I tell them there are a whole lot of questions before I would even begin. My first question, is how much time and money are you willing to put into it? Go home and think about this and come back and ask me again. In most cases if they ask again, I will tell them to spend a little money and join a NRA training class and then I would be glad to give a opinion of which gun might be a firearm to try out.
I have a lot of double action only small guns. Personally I would not recommend any of them to a new shooter. Unless of course they really plan on hitting the range often.
There are Pro and Cons to all the different actions of handguns. Size, weight, trigger pulls and weights, daily carry, bedside protection, and on and on. To be honest, I avoid recommending any firearm. And I am a firm believer that only NRA certified Firearm instructors should be the very beginning of shooting a firearm.
I taught my son the basics of handling a firearm, safety etc. with a BB gun. And then sent him to a NRA training course, and then bought him a 22.cal. and said.
Start here. See how much you like to shoot and how often you want to train. I will supply the ammo to get you started and I go each week, you can go with me every time I go. If you want to do something else fine. But when you decide to carry, you better be ready to train at least once a week, no excuses. JMO
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