Two questions on reloading for bolt-action

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Before you do any more mods to your dies, anneal your brass. This will make it size easier, and limit spring back from work hardened brass.

Something is definitely not right with what your doing. I would have your chamber checked to start with casting and head space gauges. I load for min spec/tight chamber AR's and all my dies are std/match dies. I do anneal every cycle which helps with these tight chambers. None of mine are Lee.
 
Walkalong said:
It will push the case farther in the die by the exact amount you shave off, assuming it contacts the die. If it doesn't, it won't matter.

To the OP, I wouldn't do it.
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I wouldn't do it either.
However, if the case contacts the shell holder, I do not see how removing material from the shell holder will push the case further into the die. You will have to readjust the die to bring it into contact with the die again and the length from the point where the die contacts the shell holder and the die contacts the shoulder of the case has not changed. In order to set the shoulder of the case back, you will have to take some material off the bottom of the die so that the case can be driven deeper into the die, yes?
 
Poper said:
However, if the case contacts the shell holder, I do not see how removing material from the shell holder will push the case further into the die.
Click to expand...
I think you are thinking the case is being supported by the top surface of the shell holder as it is pressed into the die. It isn't. The .308 case is supported from below by the slot surface in the shell holder (lower red arrow in below pic).

I find that pictures make an explanation much easier to understand.
In the below pic you can see that the headspace for .308 cases is measured from the bolt face/head of the case to the shoulder of the chamber/case. When resizing, forcing the head of the case closer to the shoulder reduces the headspace of the resulting case.
headspacevideo1602.png

Note the two red arrows in the following pic.
shlhldrrchrdif.jpg
The bottom arrow is the surface that supports the head of the case. The distance from this bottom surface to the shoulder surface in the die determines the headspace distance. Moving this lower surface closer to the shoulder in the resizing die means you are pushing the shoulder back further. But the upper face of the shell holder (upper red arrow) limits how close the lower support surface can get to the shoulder when it comes into contact with the bottom of the die.
So the surface supporting the case head is one end of the critical distance for headspace, but the upper surface of the shell holder is the limiting factor. Changing the limiting factor (shaving) changes the critical distance.

The above pic of two different shell holders illustrates this by showing that the left shell holder has the lower support surface .001" closer to the top surface. This moves the head of the case .001" close to the shoulder of the die when rammed into the resizing die, thus pushing the shoulder of the case back an extra .001". This is basically what I did when I shaved the top of my shell holder.
Shaving .001" off the bottom of the die produces the same result as it also brings the shoulder closer to the supporting surface of the shell holder. But a new shell holder only costs a few $$ while a new die is much more. This is the reason I modified the shell holder.

In fact I bought a new Hornady #1 shell holder for use with the RCBS small base die. The outer dimensions of the two shell holders is different, but I measured the above red arrow surfaces between the two and my modified Lee shell holder is .001" smaller than the new Hornady confirming my shaving produced the desired result.

I'm confused by the comments that shaving the face of the shell holder is the wrong approach when trying to push the shoulder back. What is the PROPER way to adjust the headspace dimension of the resulting resized case when the default case size doesn't fit the chamber of your rifle... if your rifle has a small chamber?


Overall, this introduction to reloading .308 WIN cases has been frustrating. I now have two different FL resizing dies (a Lee and a small base RCBS). One (Lee) produces cases that fit my chamber 66% of the time. The other (RCBS) produces 100% reliable cases.
I have a reference once-fired case that was fire formed in my rifle chamber that I use for checking the headspace dimensions of re-sized cases. I thought it would be differences in the headspace dimension that was causing the problem but all my resized cases have headspace dimensions smaller than my once-fired reference case. Even the ones that will not chamber are smaller.
I cannot find a dimension the is causing the resized cases not to fit into my chamber!
The outer diameters of the resized cases are all within the SAAMI case specs. While the fire formed cases exceed the SAAMI specs in the neck and shoulder diameters.
 
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If you shave the shell holder mark it, as it will potentially affect any sizer you use with it. If you really think you need another .001, take it off of the bottom of the die.
 
AshMan40 said:
Oh and one more thing... I have come to the realization that my new rifle no longer reliably extracts/ejects the cases (even empty ones) and this is a separate problem from not being able to close the bolt on the case. This seemed to have gotten worse recently. I found a small chunk of metal on my bolt face. I thought it was from one of the cases. Today I took the bolt apart and noticed the extractor claw had a small gap between it and the bolt face. I removed the claw from the bolt head and discovered it was broken. That small metal chunk was from the extractor. This obviously has been contributing to my stuck cases.

I've written to Thompson Center and asked if they would just mail me a new extractor claw.

I guess I can use this downtime to reload more rounds.
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Not sure the specific geometry and fit of your bolt parts, but this is likely NOT independent of your chambering issue, more likely the cause. The failing extractor claw and/or bits of metal it was shedding were likely binding when you attempted to cam the bolt into battery. May have even been causing the swipes on your brass mimicking pressure signs...or those were pressure signs. I would halt any additional headspace experimentation until you replace the extractor and see if this was the problem in the first place.

My first guess was thick or out of spec rims, and any slop in the extractor will show the same symptoms. Seemingly random hard lockup. I've experienced this with out of spec, severely worn or broken extractors in Mauser rifles.
 
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Or just add a piece of paper between the base of the brass and shell holder as quick test. This will raise the brass around 0.003" but paper being soft will compress giving you your 0.001"
 
AshMan40 said:
Next, I measured the headspace of the 8 cases that I initially reloaded "too hot" starting from 48.0gr of CFE223. None of these fired cases will chamber in my rifle even though there were fire formed in the same chamber. All of these cases have a smaller headspace than my reference case so they are not too large, at least when it comes to headspace. Except for the shoulder and neck diameters these cases are smaller than the dimensions shown in the Hornady manual, but they will not chamber.
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AshMan40 said:
found a small chunk of metal on my bolt face
Click to expand...


If fired brass , no sizing done, will not go back into the the chamber they were fired in, 4 possible reasons.

1. That chunk of metal?

2. Oval chamber, seen it in a Rem 7600 30-06 pump gun. RCBS small base dies fixed it.

3. Bolt face not square to the chamber.

4. High Pressure.

Your first mistake was buying used brass. imo. 2nd was loading GI brass to hot.

You just have had a great reloading experance and hopefully learned a lot. Injoy the ride.


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Just an update for anyone interested...
Sent the bolt head back to Smith & Wesson (parent company of Thompson Center) to have the extractor repaired. So for the moment my rifle is down.

Sent the Lee FL sizing die back to Lee to check and adjust? About 33% of the cases that I resized in it would stick lightly in the Ammo Checker while 100% the cases resized in the RCBS die dropped free. I think this could be normal as the RCBS small base die clearly resizes the cases smaller than SAAMI spec. Once these cases are fire formed in my rifle I’ll primarily neck size only going forward.

I have saved a referenced fire formed case that I am keeping on the side. It reliably fits in my rifle chamber and the bolt will close on it even though the neck and shoulder diameter are lager than spec. Of the fire formed cases it has the longest heaspace. I’m using the headspace measurement of this reference case as my MAX case headspace gauge. Though, every case that I have resized (Lee or RCBS) has a shorter headspace measurement than this reference case by 0.002”-0.007” so I’m not sure what good it does to measure. I supposed I can adjust the RCBS FL die so it only pushes the shoulder back to 0.002” shorted than this reference. But I think that would mean the die no longer makes firm contact with the shell holder when FL resizing??

Pulled all the bullets from the cartridges I had previously loaded. Restarted my .308 WIN 150gr Hornady FMJ-BT load ladder from 43.5gr. Since the Hornady manual has 49gr as the max load that is even lower than 90% of max. I feel safe starting from there.

Resized EVERYTHING in the small base RCBS die except for the 16 fire formed new FC brass cases. These I neck sized only. I have not touched the headspace dimension on these but all have a shorter headspace dimension than my reference case and I checked that all of these fire formed cases fit into my rifle chamber and allow the bolt to close. These will be the first group of neck sized-only cases.

Now that I have resized cases that I’m confident fit in my rifle, I’ve started load development on the following additional bullets so I have rounds to test when my bolt comes back from repair (all loads are starting from 90% of max (or less) even if the load data’s suggested starting charges show higher):

165gr Speed SPBT
Hornady 178gr A-Max
Hornady 208gr A-Max
 
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I supposed I can adjust the RCBS FL die so it only pushes the shoulder back to 0.002” shorted than this reference. But I think that would mean the die no longer makes firm contact with the shell holder when FL resizing??
Click to expand...

You do not need or required to contact the shell holder if you can size brass to fit your chamber. Just make sure you do a full stroke with the ram every time.
 
AshMan40 said:
I supposed I can adjust the RCBS FL die so it only pushes the shoulder back to 0.002” shorted than this reference. But I think that would mean the die no longer makes firm contact with the shell holder when FL resizing??
Click to expand...
As @Blue68f100 mentioned, you don't have to contact the shell holder. However, contacting the shell holder is the best way to get repeatable results. Redding makes competition shell holder sets that are graduated in 0.002" increments, and they are what I use to get shoulders bumped back a known amount.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/5...set-1-308-winchester-30-06-springfield-45-acp
 
Toprudder said:
As @Blue68f100 mentioned, you don't have to contact the shell holder. However, contacting the shell holder is the best way to get repeatable results. Redding makes competition shell holder sets that are graduated in 0.002" increments, and they are what I use to get shoulders bumped back a known amount.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/5...set-1-308-winchester-30-06-springfield-45-acp
Click to expand...
After resizing all my cases in the RCBS small base die I went thru the batch with the Hornady Headspace Gauge with Comparitor. I zeroed the gauge using my reference case as max length so I was checking that all cases have a shorter headspace. What I found were headspace measurements from 0.002" to 0.007" shorter than the reference. This is with the FL die adjusted 1/4-turn in from contacting the fully extended ram. So adjusting the die so it is NOT contacting the ram seems like a VERY inconsistent way of controlling headspace. The coarse threads of the die doesn't seem like a reliable way of managing control of the headspace.

Agreed that the collection of Redding shell holders seems like a more reliable/consistent solution. Even better would be an "adjustable" shell holder...
Imagine something like this Lee trimmer. If the base at the left were in the shape of a shell holder base with shims that fit between the two pieces. The shims would allow micro adjustment of the distance between the case supporting surface and the surface that makes contact with the die. I wonder if anyone makes something like this for controlling the headspacing?
APix-15-Case-Trimming.jpg
 
UPDATE: Got my Lee FL sizing die back. They say they have set it to the minimum sizing. I’m guessing this would make it similar to my RCBS small base die. I’ve yet to use the Lee die since I’ve sized ALL my .308/7.62 cases thru the RCBS die. I’ll give it a shot during the next round of reloading and compare the resulting cases with the RCBS.

My bolt head is still with S&W for repair. Its been 2-weeks. I called to check on the status. They can’t confirm if they’ve received the part. There is no reference against warranty work against my rifle’s ser#. They said repair work currently has a 4-8week turn around so I should give at least that long to see if the work has been done.
Note: The customer support rep I spoke w/ said I should have called before sending to get an RMA#. I saw that on the RETURNS page an RMA is required, but on their REPAIR page it just says to send the firearm or part with a copy of the receipt and a short explaination of the problem. This is what I did. The bolt head has the ser# stamped into it so there is no question which rifle it is for. The broken bits are also included so it is clear it is broken. I’ll call back in a couple weeks and get an update.

I’ve gone ahead and put together load ladders for the other 30-cal bullets I have. The 165gr Speer SPBT rounds are the ones I’m most interested in finding a precise load for. I hope to take my rifle boar/deer hunting later this year.
 
Just a quick update.
Contacted Customer Support at Thompson Center/S&W and the can confirm they have received my package with the bolt head and it is listed against my name. It is not yet completed so they said I should call back next week. I confirmed they received the package on 7 Feb so it has been 1day short of 4-weeks. They told me their typical repair turn around time is 4-6weeks so it may be a couple more weeks.

I can’t wait to get back on the range with my .308.
 
There was a thread on this site some years back which was a tutorial by rcmodel (RIP) I believe. It discussed using the camming strength of your press, and how to get the most out of your resizing dies. He stated you shouldn't use small base dies as normal dies could be set up to so the same job. He discussed using feeler gauges to raise the case to get the shell deeper into the die. I read this as I was just starting reloading, and a lot of what he said made a lot of sense. It was a late night post if I remember, and it rambled a bit and was in classic rcmodel style, which seemed plain that he knew more than anyone else on the subject. I tried searching for it to reference here, but he was one of the more prolific posters and I ran out of patience.


Sure seems to me here that the op has either a small chamber, or the broken extractor has caused the problems. Could also be the high pressures could be the cause of the broken extractor. Also, the most issues I have had reloading were using milsurp brass, which I avoid because of issues.
 
My first two thoughts about a failure to extract are too high of a pressure and the other is you failed to remove the sizing wax from the case. Both will cause a round to stick when fired.
The third thought is a weak extractor, but I don't think that is your issue.
 
Small update. I was able to find a few once-fired NATO 7.62x51mm brass (mixed headstamps). I confirmed they did NOT fit the Lyman case gauge before resizing.
I installed my “fixed” Lee FL resizing die. It appears they shaved the bottom of the die (fine milling marks). I used my Hornady .308 shell holder (not the Lee shell holder that I shaved by 0.001”). I installed it 1/4 turn in from just contacting the fully extended ram+shell holder. The resized cases easily fit into the Lyman case gauge and fell free on its own.
This tells me the “fixed” Lee sizing die should produce more reliable cases now.

Still waiting on my repaired bolt head to come back. I’ll be otherwise occupied for the next few weeks so don’t expect an update until early April. See ya then!
 
Still waiting on my repaired bolt. S&W Repair section send the (still broken) bolt back to me with a letter saying they could not repair the bolt w/o the complete rifle. Sounds like the want to be thorough with their testing post repair.
So, after recalling Customer Support they gave me an RMA and a FedEx label. I shipped the complete rifle back to S&W Repair section and have been waiting since early April. I confirmed they received the rifle and it was in queue for repair, but as they mentioned before they typically need around a month. So next update will probably be early June.
 
AshMan40 said:
Got my Lee FL sizing die back. They say they have set it to the minimum sizing.
Click to expand...
They set the base to shoulder spec at minimum by shortening it by milling or grinding the bottom of the die.
AshMan40 said:
I installed my “fixed” Lee FL resizing die. It appears they shaved the bottom of the die (fine milling marks).
Click to expand...
There you go.

I can't see how the other dimensions, by getting the case in the die .001 or .002 more, could make much difference in the body of the case as far as how the die will size the brass.

Maybe a math major can figure it. :)
 
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AshMan40 said:
What causes a reloaded case to get stuck while allowing a boxed round to come free normally?
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Pressure.

Military 7.62mm cases are often thicker than .308 cases; some are much thicker. Loading manuals usually give the brand of case used. If you substitute cases then drop back ten percent.
 
UPDATE: Got my repaired rifle back from S&W (Thompson Center). They replaced the extractor. That is all the repair invoice says.
I'm gonna try to get out to the range this weekend and test it with a variety of rounds (boxed and reloads). I hope to have an update for you in a few days. I'm taking my chrono and will try to measure the muzzle velocity for the various rounds in various weights.
 
So I got out to the range today with a couple boxes of off-the-shelf ammo and a variety of hand loads to test thru my repaired T/C Compass in .308 WIN (22" barrel; 1:12 twist; 5R rifling).
I started with the boxed ammo just as a baseline and to confirm function.
Winchester Western 147gr FMJ - Rated at 2750fps, averaged 2905fps
Federal Premium Gold Medal 175gr SMK - Rated at 2600fps, averaged 2541fps​
There was no issue at all. The measured FPS was close to the speed on the box or higher (significantly higher for the Winchester).

My hand loads are all based on Hodgdon CFE 223 for the powder. Cases were NATO 7.62x51mm (mostly LC). I do realize NATO cases will be thicker and so have less volume. Here's a few examples:
Hornady 150gr FMJ-BT
COAL 2.700"
MAX Charge listed = 49.6gr (2800fps)
Hard to extract @45.0gr (ave. 2764fps)​

Speer 165gr SP
COAL 2.800"
MAX Charge listed = 47.2gr (2700fps)(Hodgdon lists MAX 2828fps @49.0gr)
Ave. 2715fps reached at 45.0gr​

Speer 180gr SP
COAL 2.740"
MAX Charge listed = 44.6gr (2500fps)
Ave. 2498fps reached at 42.0gr​

Hornady 208gr BTHP Match
COAL 2.810"
MAX charge listed = 43.0gr (2474fps)
Hard to extract @42.0gr (ave. 2484fps)​

What I noticed is for most of my load ladders I had to stop well before I reached the final load because I hit the target fps (or MAX fps)... or I encountered a hard to extract situation. Look at the 150gr FMJ load above... I hit max fps 4.0gr below the suggested max load. The Hodgdon suggested starting load for 150gr is 48.4gr... I reached hard to extract over 3.0gr below that!!! While I was expecting my loads would show pressure signs below max based on my original post but it was STILL surprising how MUCH lower. Will NATO case smaller volume alone cause this much of a difference?

As far as other pressure signs, the primers (Winchester WLR) were just starting to flatten. And in some cases the loads where I stopped showed ejector swipe marks. I'll try to post some pics tomorrow.

And in case anyone was wondering if it was the reloads getting stuck due to residue or something else on the cases... When I first hit the failure to extract, I manually cycled all the remaining rounds without firing and they all cycled just fine. After loading the same rounds back in to the magazine the next one got stuck after firing. So clearly over pressure... even though there was limited pressure signs and I was well below the listed max charge (or in one case well below starting charge). The only give away was the round had reached the max listed fps. This seems to reinforce the idea of FPS as a pressure sign along with the other pressure signs.

To be transparent, some of the higher fps could be due to the temp at the range where I was shooting. It was a hot 85F out and the sun was beating down on me and my rifle. The polymer grey/black stock was getting too hot to touch on the side the sun was shinning on. My ammo was partially shaded but could have been getting hot in the sun. I know this increases the pressure/energy, but I will be shooting at this range in the future and in the middle of the summer it will be even worse.

I've got a bunch of data to go through and need to update my load data to limit the loads to lower than listed max. This is my first time reloading for a bolt action rifle and am finding it MUCH different that loading for a semi-auto (AR platform).

Thanks all for the feedback. I realize that the previous issue with hard to extract was caused by over-pressure. And for this rifle I need to pay close attention to pressure signs (and FPS readings). I can't expect to get anywhere close to the max listed powder charge with my reloads. In fact I need to second guess the Hodgdon suggested starting loads and start at least 10% lower than max if the starting load is less than 90% of max! I'll try reloading the .308 cases from my boxed ammo and see if there is a significant difference. This will tell me if it is the case volume or just my rifle.
 
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forrest r said:
Of course there's nothing wrong with the op's powder choice. He was merely looking for the powder that gave the highest velocities instead of known velocities. Couple that with expectations of getting 2900fps+ from a 22" bbl'd 308w pushing a 150gr bullet.
Yup tons of data out there for cfe223 compared to those old out of date powders like h4895 or 4064. Along with that old data about realistic/real world velocities that can be proved for decades in more reloading books, reloading guides & magazines you can shake a stick at.
I'm glad you think his "die adjustment" isn't the problem. Everyone uses a grinder on the shell holder to get the cases to size down enough to fit a gun. This might come as a BIG surprise but I've never had to grind anything off of a shell holder or die sets to get them to resize a shell casing to the correct size to fit any firearm I've ever owned.
Hard to believe the op used too much powder with all that data out there. Hard to believe the op expected to get 2900fps+ with that bullet/bbl combo with all that data out there. Hard to believe the op had to use a mallet to open the bolt on that new/unknown rifle with all that data out there for that bullet/powder combo.

I know it's kinda silly to error on the side of caution and take a little time to measure the spent factory cases along with what comes out of a sizing die. But doing so tells the person measuring things like if the chamber is in spec & if the reloading dies are in spec. Myself I have a set of go/no-go gauges for the 308w & I check every new/new to me firearm with them before I take them out in the field. Even with the gauges I still measure the spent cases to find out the dimensions of the chamber in the rifle. And of course finding out the true max oal of a bullet/bbl combo is is probably being overly cautious but it's something that doesn't hurt anything either.

After reading your post it probably is a bad idea to take the time to measure anything. Spend $30 on a pound of powder that you can easily get 10+ data points from to read/compare/make an informed opinion along with realistic expectations. And if it don't work don't bother finding out if the new firearm might have a headspace issue file down the shell holder.

Not picking on anyone, just don't understand how anyone could think that grinding down shell holders is a good idea. Or using a powder with limited data and having to use a mallet to open the bolt on a firearm is ok.

Myself, I tend to error on the side of caution and for the 1st +/- 170 rounds in that new 308w I would of used a "70 year old powder", measured everything, checked the headspace, checked for max oal and used the starting loads from 2 different dat points for the 1st reloads I shot in that new rifle. Doing so would of gave me real world results to compare to the data I have on hand along with more cases to check/measure/setup the neck sizing die with.

Well good luck with it, try to be safe and not have to use a mallet to open/close the bolt on your new rifle. A new mold I ordered awhile back came in today. It's a copy of the Eagan mx4-30a bullet/mold that I already have. The new mold is a hp mold that will cast a +/- 170gr bullet for the 308w.
View attachment 822843

Don't know if it can hold up to the pressures of the loads with the weak point being the small core/center at the large lube groove.
View attachment 822844
Going to work loads up to the 2700fps range with this 170gr cast hp in my 308w.
Click to expand...
 
IWAC said:
...expectations of getting 2900fps+ from a 22" bbl'd 308w pushing a 150gr bullet.
Click to expand...
Just a note on this... One of the boxes of off-the-shelf ammo I was using as a reference was Winchester Western 7.62x51mm 147gr FMJ. Clearly this replicates a NATO round and NOT .308Win, but I was expecting similar MV (maybe slightly higher). The box has the round rated at 2750fps. Thru my rifle I was getting MV as high as 2978fps (average 2905fps).. and no problem with extractions! I have no explanation for this?
Clearly Winchester is using some "magic powder" that can somehow hit higher than max MV and NOT reach over pressure in my rifle.

I have some load data for H335 that is meant to replicate NATO rounds. I'll slowly approach max MV and see if I can't replicate the boxed ammo. FYI, my M80 data has a target MV of only 2733fps, not 2900+fps.
 
AshMan40 said:
Just a note on this... One of the boxes of off-the-shelf ammo I was using as a reference was Winchester Western 7.62x51mm 147gr FMJ. Clearly this replicates a NATO round and NOT .308Win, but I was expecting similar MV (maybe slightly higher). The box has the round rated at 2750fps. Thru my rifle I was getting MV as high as 2978fps (average 2905fps).. and no problem with extractions! I have no explanation for this?
Clearly Winchester is using some "magic powder" that can somehow hit higher than max MV and NOT reach over pressure in my rifle.

I have some load data for H335 that is meant to replicate NATO rounds. I'll slowly approach max MV and see if I can't replicate the boxed ammo. FYI, my M80 data has a target MV of only 2733fps, not 2900+fps.
Click to expand...


It's not the "magic powder" that ww uses nor the 2900fps. It's the expectation that you could safely get to 2900fps using cfe223 powder with that rifle/bullet combo.

Just glad you got everything sorted out and up & running. Enjoy your hard earned range time.

On a side note:
H335 is an excellent powder for the 223's & 308w's. I'm getting 2650+fps with cast 165gr bullets in my 308w using H335 while maintaining hunting accuracy. Hunting accuracy ='s +/- 1 1/2" 10-shot groups @ 100yds. This years expectations is to maintain the +/- 1 1/2" 10-shot groups @ 100yds while getting into the 2800fps range with 165gr cast bullets.
 
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