Need 308win OAL advise

I had a HK 91 back in the 80's. I sold it for this very reason. Brass coming out of the rifle was unusable for reloading. The delayed roller block action is hard on brass.

I really liked that rifle, hard hitting, reliable, and accurate. The adjustable diopter sights were the best on any rifle I've ever owned to this day. Just had to feed it new factory ammo.

.40

Have you checked to make sure your not pushing the shoulder back too far? Over sizing the brass makes the head case separation more apparent. Do you use a chase gauge to check for should position? Have your checked the brass in your gun. A gun with overly generous chamber should be sized longer to minimize stretch. Your right in moving to a faster power if this was a gas operated gun.Some guns are just hard on brass.

I have had a Century built CETME and a Federal Arms G3 which share your PTRs operating system and brass eating nature.
Some things I learned about reloading for them:

Consider your brass disposable. You don't want to hear this, but it will be a fact of life for you. I only used military brass once fired in a non-G3 type rifle. At the time I had a ready supply of it from our local range as there was still a lot of boxer primed 7.62 milsurp in the pipeline and a lot of guys with FALs and M1As. I found the same issues with chewed up brass and case length all over the board as you did. The extraction and ejection cycle, between what happens inside the chamber and after it leaves and strikes whatever is nearby on the range, is simply too violent to preserve brass in usable condition. The DRLB method of operation also allows for excessive growth of OAL and shoulder runout. I did reload some, but found it not worth the effort as extreme lubrication and resizing effort in addition to a trim every firing was required.

Do not use commercial brass. You will get occasional case separations, especially with brass that has some firings on it. RG, LC, WCC, Fed "Military" are your friends. EDIT...forgot to add PRVI to this list. Their .308 brass is the same as their military 7.62 brass, very stout.

I think you're on the right track with CFE223. I used 46 gr of BL-C2 or 45 of IMR4064 with good results. Accuracy was best and muzzle flash and blast was reduced with 4064.

I think the extra dents on your cases are from secondary impacts after ejection. These things really hurl brass. These rifles were a lot of fun, but without inexpensive high quality military surplus ammo available, they are expensive to feed so I no longer own them.

Random 8 said:

Consider your brass disposable. You don't want to hear this, but it will be a fact of life for you.

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It's the same with the M1a action. I've had brass not survive it's second (my first) loading for myriad failures, including case head separation. For the time and money spent, unless you have a source of very inexpensive processed brass, you are better off just buying surplus or cheap factory (Prvi is my favorite.) I do spend the time on target/long range cartridges... say a 168grn SMK or Nosler, but those are few and far between.

jkhammer said:

I appreciate the feedback. It will be will be will be then. Defeated.reloader.....

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Meh, it's a fine rifle... for what it is. It is a battle rifle, however, and part of the cost of battlefield reliability is the beating it gives the brass. As a reloader, I pick my battles... my efforts are better spent elsewhere.

Is that rifle adjustable on the gas like the FAL? If so I'd start by letting some more gas out. Slow that bolt speed down a bit and you might see a little better result if it will still cycle reliably. Maybe not be pulling so hard on that case while the chamber is still at higher pressures.

jkhammer said:

I am reloading for a PTR91 308 win and needing some advise on several issues. I currently reload for a 308 win bolt action and have not run into this issue of case seperation.

Load data was taken from Hornady 9th Edition manual using a case length of 2.015, 47 grains of CFE223 using a 150 gr Hornady FMJ BT bullet with an 2.700 COAL. The brass was once fired, ( purchased) cleaned, annealed, FL sized, cleaned then trimmed to 2.015. Firing from a PTR91. The 47 grain charge is a middle if the road charge (2650? velocity range) with 49.6 being MAX.

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I'd recommend you drop your charge down to 43.0gr and start a new load work up.

I just started loading .308Win for my bolt action rifle. I also started using a chrono to track bullet speeds. My loads are basically identical to yours (NATO cases, Hornady 150gr FMJ, Winchester LR primers, CFE223 powder, 2.700" COAL, cases trimmed to 2.005"). In my 22" 1:12 twist barrel I hit an average 2764fps at only 45.0gr of CFE223. 49.6gr @2800fps is the listed max load in the Hornady manual but I nearly hit that at 4.0gr lower than the max charge. At 45.0gr I experienced hard extraction so stopped my progression ladder. I'm thinking you are running into the same issue... The recommended charges of CFE223 are too hot and you need to start lower. The Hodgdon site recommended STARTING charge for 150gr bullets is 48.0gr (2764fps) with a MAX charge of 51.5gr (2974fps). That starting load fps is exactly the average fps I measure but I got there 3.0gr lower and experienced extraction problems!! The secondary reason I stopped was because the boxed rounds of Winchester 7.62NATO 147gr FMJ had a listed fps of 2800fps, so this was my target fps and I didn't need to go higher.

What should have rang an alarm bell for me is that for safety, when changing a component (eg. brand of primer) the standard convention is to drop your charge by 10% and restart your load ladder to confirm your previously good loads still work. When using a new load, shouldn't you also start at least 10% below the listed MAX? So where 49gr is the listed MAX for 150gr bullets, I should have started my progression ladder at around 44gr, even though the listed starting charge is 48gr. Now I know better. If the suggested STARTING load is above 90% of the max load... I'll use the lower 90% as my starting load.

FYI, my Hornady manual shows 2.015" as the MAX case length. Trim length is 2.005". As long as your cases are 2.015" or less you should be fine.
Not sure that case length makes any difference on how much the case stretches during the next firing as the case is head spaced on the distance between the shoulder and the case head. I suppose you are just referring to all your fired cases are showing signs of stretching. This is either from your chamber, or your sizing die. Measure before and after resizing to see which. I've noted that with bottle necked cases they tend to grow when being FL sized. If you are concerned look at the RCBS X-Die. They are supposed to prevent cases growing.
Unlike bolt action rifles where you WANT the case to tightly fit the chamber for maximum accuracy, in a semi-auto you want reliable feeding/ejection which may require the cases be slightly undersized. This is the reason .223Rem and .308Win FL sizing dies from RCBS come in a "Small Base version" to slightly undersize the case for reliable feeding. Maybe you need the RCBS X-Die small base full-length resizing die? I just bought one but don't yet know if it works as advertised.

I've not owned a rifle with a fluted chamber, but I understand they are hard on cases as the flutes allow the case to stretch more than a non-fluted chamber. The fluting is there to improve reliable extraction. But in some cases rendering the cases unusable for reloading. So even if you reload your cases to perfectly fit your chamber, the rifle itself could make reloading an effort.

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data that may be beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

In case it helps... here are my notes on the different .308Win loads and where I hit my target MV or started to have trouble w/ extraction. My primary manual is Hornady 9th Edition but I also refer to Hodgdon site. Hodgdon almost always lists a higher charge/MV as their max. But I have come to stick closer to Hornady's more conservative values, at least for CFE223 in the .308Win.

My handloads are all based on Hodgdon CFE 223 for the powder. Cases were once-fired NATO 7.62x51mm (mostly LC) trimmed to 2.005". Primers were Winchester WLR. The final powder charge (MAX) I reached for each bullet is in the last line under that bullet. At this listed charge weight I saw ejector swipes on the case head. Primer flattening started a couple grains earlier but by the time I reached the final charge there was no question the primers were flat and in some cases I could see cratering at the firing pin dent. The combination of flat/cratered primers + ejector swipe + max FPS + hard extraction (for some) was a clear indicator to me I had reached the max charge weight even if it was whole grains lower than what was in the manual. Note that the "average" FPS listed means there were some bullets moving as much as 30FPS faster than that average. The spread (high - low) for some loads was up in the 70FPS+. The temp on the day I was shooting was around 85degF and sunny. The bench was only partially shaded so the rounds may have been warmed up in the sun... which increases MV/pressure.


My T/C Compass rifle is rather new (<200 rounds thru the barrel) and you could say some of the measurements (like the spread) are being influenced by this. I'll have to keep working my load development and track any changes in MV as I get more rounds thru the gun.

JkHammer why dont you try to use a comparator to measure your headspace on the cartridge. Download SAAMI specs for 308 win cartridges from their website. All the measurements you do need is there.

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data that may be beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

To the OP who was loading CFE223 under 150gr FMJ bullets, here is my chrono data from a day out shooting my T/C Compass in .308WIN. The MV listed next to each charge is the average over 3-5 rounds. You can see that I reached the target 2800fps MV much lower than either the Hornady or Hodgdon load data. Going forward I have made 44.0gr my max load. I might try working up charges between 44.0 and 44.5 and find the point where I hit 2800fps. But I'd be perfectly satisfied with 44.0gr as my max.

As a reference, I ran a few rounds of Winchester Western NATO 7.62x51mm 147gr FMJ thru my rifle. They produces an average MV of 2905fps with a max measured MV of 2978fps. That is well above the box rated MV of 2750fps and NATO target of 2733fps. 43.0gr of CFE223 will produce at least 2740fps and make a good clone of the rated NATO round.

Here's my data:
Case: once-fired NATO 7.62x51mm LC cases (various years); FL resized and trimmed to 2.005"
(I know the NATO cases have smaller internal volume and this could be the reason for some/most of the readings)
Primer: Winchester WLR (large rifle)
Powder: Hodgdon CFE 223
Chonograph: Caldwell G2 Ballistic Precision Chronograph @15ft

150gr Hornady FMJ-BT
Target FPS = 2800
COAL = 2.700" / Hornady Comparitor = 2.119”
42.5gr (2602fps)
43.1gr (2725fps)
43.6gr (2746fps)
44.0gr (2771fps)
44.5gr (2864fps ave)(2922fps MAX)(flat primer / ejector swipe)
45.0gr! (extraction prob!)

NOTE: The Hodgdon starting charge is 48.4gr. Hodgdon max listed charge is 51.5gr with a MV of only 2974fps. At 87% of that charge I am already seeing rounds hitting that MV. The Hornady max charge is 49.6gr @2800fps. I reached that MV 5gr below that!

Cearly, if using CFE223 you need to start VERY low (like 42.0gr) and work your way up looking for pressure signs.

I had FIL's PTR91 for a while since it needed some work. I couldn't reload any brass from it - damaged too much on ejection. c1975 LC, c2010 LC, S&B 150gr, & PPU 180gr - all factory ammo, none of that brass was good as 1x to reuse.

When I inherit that rifle (or he gifts it before then) it will just get Wolf, Brown Bear, Tula, etc steel case

I would recommend not oversizing your brass . Can you chamber a fired case ? The longest case length if it doesn't chamber , set up your F/L sizing die long and lower until until the case chambers with very little resistance . Then size all your cases at that setting and every once an awhile chamber a sized case to check . Then with a unprimed sized case do the same thing with your seating die , start long where the round will not chamber and using that round keep lowering the seating die until the round chambers . Now with that ,what your looking for is the bolt lift with out feeling any esistancer by lowering your seating bullet . What your feeling when your bolt is lifting is the pressure the bullet is putting on the rifling , when the click feeling is gone is when the bullet is no longer pressing into the rifling . From that measurement you can jump , jam or just touch the rifling. I full length all my 308 benchrest rounds . I'm using IMR 4064 40.84 grains only shooting 200 yards with good conditions , it's a low load but shoots very accurately , my jump is .002 with .001 - .002 of headspace no more or less . I trim every firing to 2.010 , after trimming every time it's more like a clean up then a trim . Sorry for being so long winded but just want to help in some way . Be Safe .

Chris