Long Range Rifle/Scope/PRS question(s)

I was reminded Saturday at a match why I like “Christmas trees” so much for PR games. We had switching 20-25mph winds, gusts higher, and various shot angles throughout the match. USUALLY I dial my elevation and hold wind unless holds are required by the stage description, but having a G3, there are days when I like to work my way down into the Christmas tree on purpose. On one stage, the absolutely random ranges lined up incredibly well for my load - 1.2, 2.2, and 3.2 for the 3 ranges, 3 targets 1 shot each from 3 positions. I dialed 0.2 on, then held on the 1, 2, and 3 mil hashes, which saved me a little time to avoid dialing 8 times on the clock, AND still gave me good reference for the wind holds instead of floating in open glass.

We had a stage which required 407yrd followed by 800, no dialing on the clock, I didn’t dial either of them so my 800’s would be closer to my tree - just above the tip of my 5mil “branch.” I did get lucky and shot in a lull, some of my squad had twice the wind than I had during their 2 minutes.

I might like one brand/version of a Christmas tree better than another, but for precision rifle games, I know I want a reticle with a tree.

@Varminterror, this comes back to my point about reticle design. Clearly a Christmas tree reticle is helpful to you as a PRS competitor and I've mentioned that I like the EBR stuff for similar reasons, and yet Nightforce states that the MIL-C reticle is "designed to meet the needs of today's Precision Rifle Series competitor". Don't they talk to competitors at Nightforce, don't they run their own products under real-world conditions, do NF employees compete in the PRS? So I guess my point is, does NF expect the user to dial windage and not hold off when using a scope with the MIL-C reticle?

MCMXI said:

yet Nightforce states that the MIL-C reticle is "designed to meet the needs of today's Precision Rifle Series competitor".

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And yet Nightforce just released the Mil-XT reticle this spring and they’ve been flying off of shelves, as competitors have been begging for something from them with less than an H59, but more than the Mil-C.

Nightforce Mil-XT reticle

From the top of the second page of the above attachment:

Nightforce said:

Designed to meet the needs of today’s precision rifle competitor, the MIL-XTTM reticle allows for fast and accurate shots on target.

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Varminterror said:

And yet Nightforce just released the Mil-XT reticle this spring and they’ve been flying off of shelves, as competitors have been begging for something from them with less than an H59, but more than the Mil-C.

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Now that's the ticket! I'll have to see if I can swap the ATACR I just received for one with that reticle. When I looked at the ATACR on Nightforce's website there was no mention of that reticle being an option.

There have been a lot of Mil-C ATACR’s going on the used market lately!

I think the vortex ebr 2 or 7 or this zero compromise reticle are my favorite

When do you need 2 Mils of wind dots with a 1 mil elevation hold?

I have been outside of my Christmas tree on a G3 at 2 matches this season already - considering I have only shot 3 matches this season so far, well... the wind blows out here...

Varminterror said:

I have been outside of my Christmas tree on a G3 at 2 matches this season already - considering I have only shot 3 matches this season so far, well... the wind blows out here...

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With that are you dialing up for a short target and then holding another mil or two for the next target? I can see where it could be possible. I shot some at 670 yesterday and had a 3mph wind, needed .3 Mils for a wind hold -easy day. A 15mpg wind needs 2.0 Mils at the same range, and if I where to hold only I would be out of my tree as well

Varminterror said:

There have been a lot of Mil-C ATACR’s going on the used market lately!

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I got approval to return the ATACR with the MIL-C reticle and exchange it for one with the MIL-XT ... but it'll be July until I can get one. I have a new RAZOR HD Gen II to play with so I'm ok with the wait.

@z7 - mix and match of this and that.

One example: 407 and 800, back and forth alternating a TYL + confirmation target, no dialing on the clock (aka, can dial one distance, but have to leave it there and hold at least one). I zeroed my rifle and held both. 407 was 1.5 x1.2, 800 was 4.7x 2.1. If I dialed off 1.5, then I would have been farther out in open glass for the 800, rather than being only a half mil outside of the tree. That was a 20mph call (FV), and wasn’t our fastest windcall of the day.

On another stage, random ranges lined up to 1.2, 2.2, and 3.2 elevations and I was bracketing 14-18mph, so I dialed 0.2mils and held closer to my tree. We had a few positions from which to shoot each target, and the targets were big enough to accept a little float. So I took the opportunity to play NEAR-but-outside my Christmas tree - and held for that stage, instead of dialing 8 times on the clock.

In Sept last season, I’d have to check my data book when I get home tonight, but I know I was reading over 35mph full value, and we shot a troop line of 5 targets up the side of a hill, hold only, and a little farther out than a guy really loved for a hold only stage in high winds. In calm winds, the ranges and targets would have been very conducive to that stage design and be fun. In 35mph, having a Christmas tree branches reaching out to offer aid made my stage much easier than guys reading a few mils off into the wild blue, away from their reticle.

But yes - MOST of the time I dial elevation and hold wind on the horizontal.

Do get range to target(s) info at each stage before the match or do you have to figure it out on the fly, or both?

Nature Boy said:

Do get range to target(s) info at each stage before the match or do you have to figure it out on the fly, or both?

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For most matches, you can get the “match book” the day before to prepare dope. For club matches, we usually get an email or Facebook post a day or few days before.

There are “blind stages” in some matches, where you don’t know anything going in, usually these are longer in time to allow ranging and data crunching on the clock. One of our KS Precision Rifle Club ranges is putting on a blind match next month where every stage will be blind. Only info going in will be a round count. Kinda looking forward to that.

Varminterror said:

For most matches, you can get the “match book” the day before to prepare dope. For club matches, we usually get an email or Facebook post a day or few days before.

There are “blind stages” in some matches, where you don’t know anything going in, usually these are longer in time to allow ranging and data crunching on the clock. One of our KS Precision Rifle Club ranges is putting on a blind match next month where every stage will be blind. Only info going in will be a round count. Kinda looking forward to that.

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Sounds like fun

Nature Boy said:

Sounds like fun

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It is. Exceptionally so.

Quite exceptional this thread, it is one of my favorite follows! Thanks guys, outstanding.

Russellc

Walkalong said:

I had intended for both of us to shoot the Seekins, but broke down and ordered an Impact rifle in 6MM Dasher. Dies, brass, bullets, etc are also ordered.

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Whoa!!! Are you talking about one of these? If so, way to go and quite the step up from the Seekins. I will add though, "no magazine included" on a $4K rifle …. really?!! Also, you might want to upgrade to a TriggerTech trigger at some point. They're offering a 2-stage soon.

Added in edit: Did you consider an Accuracy International AT which is very similar in price?

https://impactprecisionshooting.com...ba-competition-chassis-black-6mm-lapua-dasher

I don't know much about the Viper PST Gen II scopes but I've had three of the Gen I versions for a few years now and they've been stellar. I think the Viper PST models are great value for money and from what I've read, the Gen II models are an improvement over the Gen 1 albeit a bit heavier which is of no consequence to many of us.

That Impact will be a sick machine for you. I was between Impact and Defiance for my new one, I went Defiance only because I spent some time with them at NRAAM and they offered me a great deal, and because they’d do a custom serial number for me (largely trivial, because both are amazing actions).

For $700, that Gen II will be great glass. I can’t think of anything of that quality for anywhere near that price. Euro’s price on them is even less than the Vortex LEO/Mil discount!

That MPA pistol grip feels weird to me. It feels like a left-handed grip rather than right, but Phil (with a bunch of LOLs) assured me that it's meant for right-handed shooters. It's a nice chassis with lots of good features. I have one but haven't put it to use yet and probably never will.

MCMXI said:

That MPA pistol grip feels weird to me. It feels like a left-handed grip rather than right, but Phil (with a bunch of LOLs) assured me that it's meant for right-handed shooters. It's a nice chassis with lots of good features. I have one but haven't put it to use yet and probably never will.

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Did you wrap your thumb around it?

Yes, and I can see how not doing that makes it more comfortable. But it's the way the grip forces my index (trigger) finger to form a 90 degree bend at the proximal interphalangeal joint that doesn't feel natural to me. And yes, I had to Google proximal interphalangeal joint. No doubt the design is intended to make the trigger finger come straight back when pulling the trigger but that's not something I need help with.

@Walkalong, I use feeler gauges to get a scope square by stacking them up between the flat on the underside of the scope and flat on top of the rail or mount. With your set up, you could check the vertical tracking of the reticle. Nice!!