Any problem with not using the crimp groove?

I would crimp over the shoulder with a corresponding reduction in powder charge.

NoirFan said:

Can I seat the bullet even deeper and roll crimp over the SWC shoulder to avoid denting the bullet?

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Yeppers, you sure can.

NoirFan said:

I assume this will raise case pressure so published data will have to be downloaded.

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That's true too. Just be careful - as always, start low and work up.

NoirFan said:

published data will have to be downloaded. (Uberti 1858 factory conversion).

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This will leave you guessing at the pressure. Not a good idea.

Hodgdon starting load data for 45 Colt would run around 750 fps. At this velocity, i dont think the hollow point bullet is of any value. Use a plain lswc that should give a shorter oal with less bullet shank in the case.
Is a Hodgdon COL of 1.600" to long?
I would use the Hodgdon 45 Colt starting loads with a different 250 gr bullet, if possible.

Interesting problem. I dont own one. https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=534291

I've shot lots of my cast bullets seated deep and crimped over the driving band. I just started at a lower powder charge and worked back up.

243winxb said:

45 Colt would run around 750 fps. At this velocity, i dont think the hollow point bullet is of any value. Use a plain lswc that should give a shorter oal with less bullet shank in the case.

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Mr 243 makes some excellent points. If the HP isn't going to expand, then why bother loading it ?
And did I get that correct, your plan is to carry a single action 45 for SD ?

Good points.

As stated above, start low & work up.

I tried a 200 grain bullet designed for theACP in my 45C. Smooth no crimp groove. No crimp other than to remove the slight flare. Using Unique didn’t work out well too little powder in too big a case. Trailboss worked better, good even, I soon switched to a 200 grain RNFP and a 250 grain RNFP.

To answer the specific question crimp over the shoulder worked out fine, just made for an ugly bullet. I did the same with A 38Special wad cutter that had a dome in one end. To shoot in my S&W Model 52 I had to seat the dome flush with the case mouth, the die actually put a slight tool crimp over essentially nothing. Again worked and shot ok just looked weird.
IMO in cases like the 45C, 44/40 38 Special and others bullet seating depth can’t be all that important, the smokeless powder charge in these cases often isn't anywhere near the bullet base unless your using a higher bulk powder like Trailboss.

trim the cases far enough so the bullet can be crimped in the crimp groove and the loaded round will fit the cylinder. make sure you start at the bottom of the load chart and work up as you will lose a bit of powder volume with this. this will work even if you have more than one gun chambered in 45lc. segregate these cases if you load for a longer cylindered gun.

luck,

murf

the bullet is designed to utilize the crimp groove, so trimming the case to a standard length will ensure a consistent bullet seating depth time after time (even if you forget to write your col down from the last reloading session). crimping over the bullet shoulder will not be as accurate, imo, because there is no control of how deep/shallow to crimp.

luck,

murf

NoirFan said:

Interesting idea, but how is this effectively different, pressure-wise, than just seating the bullet deeper in an untrimmed case?

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murf said:

the bullet is designed to utilize the crimp groove, so trimming the case to a standard length will ensure a consistent bullet seating depth time after time

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I stated in my earlier post in this thread that you can crimp over the front driving bands. However, I agree with murf that shortening the cases is a better way to go.

As to how shortening the cases compared to just seating the bullets deeper is any different pressure-wise, well, that front driving band is what, about 1/10” wide? Do you really need to shorten your rounds a whole tenth of an inch so that the bullets don’t stick out of the front of your cylinder? Or could you get by with shortening them just a twentieth of an inch?

I’m not trying to be a wise guy here, but shortening your cases 1/20” and still utilizing the bullet’s crimp groove would affect your pressure less than seating your bullets 1/10” deeper so that you can crimp over your bullet’s front driving bands.

NoirFan said:

how is this effectively different, pressure-wise, than just seating the bullet deeper in an untrimmed case?

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It’s not, in terms of pressure, but it does produce ammo with bidirectional support for the bullet. Crimping over the forward bearing surface shoulder will mean there’s nothing to stop the bullet from being shoved deeper into the case. Not a big issue in a revolver, definitely is in a levergun. Something to keep in mind.

NoirFan said:

if I can make an HP work in this cartridge, why not?

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I can tell you from experience that this bullet will expand nicely at 900 fps. I'm not sure if 750 would be enough though.

or you could purchase 45 s&w cases and be done with this. the rim will be too big, but you can load every other cylinder. someone also makes a 45 short colt case for cowboy action shooting, I think. may want to look into that.

luck,

murf

murf said:

someone also makes a 45 short colt case for cowboy action shooting, I think. may want to look into that.

luck,

murf

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Starline does.

https://www.starlinebrass.com/45-cowboy-special

thanks for the reference, eddie booth. I knew the name would never be "short colt", but "cowboy special" has a nice ring to it.

murf

I have roll crimped case mouths into the side of a cast bullet. Used same data (but I rarely go near max.) and just roll the case mouth a few thousandths into the side of the bullet. On firing the case expands and "releases" the bullet and when I inspected the fired cases saw no indication the crimp scraped the bullet's side. I saw no change in accuracy when shooting my 44 Magnum revolvers. I have also crimped around the shoulder like RKRCPA mentioned with no noticeable change in accuracy...