444 marlin rifle

I assume you mean a 4-12X scope. A 4X12 scope would be a fixed power 4X scope with a tiny 12mm front objective. Marlin is one of my favorite rifle manufacturers and I'm betting you like the rifle. 4-12X is really too much scope for that rifle but if its what you have I'd use it for now. A compact 1-4X20 or 2-7X32 would be a better fit IMO.

The .444 Marlin is a great round. It was the first rifle cartridges that I loaded when I started handloading in the late '70's.I

I agree that the Marlin .444 is a great looking rifle.

I also agree with jmr40 that a 4X scope is as much as you need for that gun.
Enjoy your new rifle.

If all you're doing is target shooting, a 4-12 is fine. Overkill, yes. But if it's what you have, don't feel like you need to replace it.
The 444 is an awesome cannon.

You can always keep it at 4x. But you have more magnification if you need it. Several times I’ve spotted deer in the woods, brought the scope up at 3x, and thought about taking a shot. Turning the power up to 6-8 revealed small brush or twigs that may have caused a bad shot.

I have my brother's Marlin he got in the early 70s. Marked 336-444. Ugly Monte Carlo straight grip, half magazine with a 4X scope. Lyman gas check 245 grain bullet and 4198 gives fairly good groups. I've got two boxes of Leverolution 265s but am a little wary. About like 416 Rigby. (Which I have shot as well as 458 win, 375 H&H and a few others).

Really look forward to a range report and detailed analysis of quality. I really want one of the new Remlin 444s but have to get over fear of Remlin.

I think that the 1895 Marlin in .45-70 with the original 22" barrel and half magazine kind of replaced the .444 Marlin for many.
Anything that the .444 could do the .45-70 could do better with handloads.
The 300 and 350 grain JSP and JHP bullets weights in .45-70 gave it more versatility.
I would still put a quality fixed 4 power on such a rifle.
(Leupold, Busnell Banner, Weaver K4)
Fixed power scopes have fewer parts, are lighter, and more reliable in my opinion.
And, these are not 300 yard rifles.

PapaG said:

I have my brother's Marlin he got in the early 70s. Marked 336-444. Ugly Monte Carlo straight grip, half magazine with a 4X scope. Lyman gas check 245 grain bullet and 4198 gives fairly good groups. I've got two boxes of Leverolution 265s but am a little wary. About like 416 Rigby. (Which I have shot as well as 458 win, 375 H&H and a few others).

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Those 444 Leverevolution have a lot of thump on both ends.

Bfh_auto said:

Those 444 Leverevolution have a lot of thump on both ends.

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That is a fact! And I don’t know why. The 325gr 45-70 aren’t as bad as the 265gr 444. Even loaded hot, my 300gr hand loads aren’t as bad as the 265’s.

I will argue that 45-70 may top 444 in terms of maximum muzzle energy and bullet weight, but I really do think the 444 is the better all around hunting cartridge. Reason being is that it can shoot faster and flatter than the 45-70 with better ballistic coefficients and more manageable recoil. A 444 loaded stout with a 300+ grain bullet is very much manageable to shoot out to 300 yards. I guess I would have to do the math on it but I don't think there is anything you can load in a 45-70 that will shoot flatter or reach out any better than what you can in a 444, and you get less recoil in the 444 doing it. The furthest I have ever taken an animal with mine was about 250 yards which I did with a 320 grain cast gas check bullet leaving at 2300 fps. My drop at that range is just over a foot and the wind isn't bad either. I think the only thing that ever had the 444 back and laid the groundwork for the 45-70 to come back was the poor choice of using a slow twist rate and 240 grain bullet in the original loading. That is a terrible loading for the cartridge. 444 really lends itself to a tough 300+ grain bullet.

Somebody has to say it, so I'll go first: if you plan on hunting mostly in heavy cover and don't envision taking shots much further than 100 yards, in the interest of having a better handling, lever-action, big bore rifle that looks "appropriate for the genre", I'd consider mounting a good receiver sight (like the Williams "FoolProof") in lieu of a scope. That said, if you insist on having a scope for all the many good reasons to do so, I strongly agree with the folks who are recommending mounting a relatively compact one that doesn't weigh anymore than its magnification power warrants.

SwampWolf said:

Somebody has to say it, so I'll go first: if you plan on hunting mostly in heavy cover and don't envision taking shots much further than 100 yards, in the interest of having a better handling, lever-action, big bore rifle that looks "appropriate for the genre", I'd consider mounting a good receiver sight (like the Williams "FoolProof") in lieu of a scope. That said, if you insist on having a scope for all the many good reasons to do so, I strongly agree with the folks who are recommending mounting a relatively compact one that doesn't weigh anymore than its magnification power warrants.

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Number one reason for a scope is my little 4x32 gives me an extra 30 minutes in the morning and evening.
I like irons on classic muzzleloaders and pistols.

BigBore44 said:

You can always keep it at 4x. But you have more magnification if you need it. Several times I’ve spotted deer in the woods, brought the scope up at 3x, and thought about taking a shot. Turning the power up to 6-8 revealed small brush or twigs that may have caused a bad shot.

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Even worse, the brush might have implied it had horns and it didn't.
A long time ago, I almost shot a doe believing she was a he..
That prompted me to buy a scope...

1957 Marlin 336C in 35 Rem with a Weaver K series..

I don't think there's any more a legitimate 444 vs 45-70 debate than there is a 30-06 vs 45-70 debate.

They are very different cartridges that do very different things. I have both in different single shot rifles.

I shoot a repro rolling block 45-70 in competition and years ago shot a buffalo with it at just over 225 yards. Hit that bugger solid in the boiler room with a 535 grs 1:20 alloy Postel. I thought I had missed. The beast just sort of shifted a bit on his feet and made a little grunt, but my guide said, "You got him, but hit him again". The second was a bit far forward into the shoulder and this time he bucked and took about five wobbly steps before going down at the front end. I was loading a third when my guide said " That's it". He blew a bit but was dead by the time we got there. I would not try that with a 444. I shoot that same bullet, and sometimes 500 grs paper patched slicks, in competition out to 500 yards - still very much amateur hour. Something else the 444 wouldn't be as good at.

I think the 444 is much the better cartridge in a lever gun repeater. Similar to a statement made above, my favorite bullet in 444 is a 325 grs hard cast, gas checked soup can (can't remember the design but I have a ton of them from Matt's Bullets). It shoots much flatter than the 45-70 and I am very comfortable with it to an MPBR of 235 yards. I've used the 265 grs Hornady FTX on hogs but I just feel like they are more fragile than I would like. A 444 lever gun would, in my view, be the ultimate walk-and-stalk hog gun.

Virtually any bullet put in the right place will kill an animal. 45-70 trajectories make doing that harder than flatter shooting rounds, but they can be mastered and I view the 45-70 as a long range killer first and a short range smasher second. The 444 is a one trick pony, but very talented at putting big holes in things at under 250 yards. And I think the 444 is better suited to a repeater, but that is all opinion with nothing to back it up ;-)

someguy2800 said:

I will argue that 45-70 may top 444 in terms of maximum muzzle energy and bullet weight, but I really do think the 444 is the better all around hunting cartridge. Reason being is that it can shoot faster and flatter than the 45-70 with better ballistic coefficients and more manageable recoil. A 444 loaded stout with a 300+ grain bullet is very much manageable to shoot out to 300 yards. I guess I would have to do the math on it but I don't think there is anything you can load in a 45-70 that will shoot flatter or reach out any better than what you can in a 444, and you get less recoil in the 444 doing it. The furthest I have ever taken an animal with mine was about 250 yards which I did with a 320 grain cast gas check bullet leaving at 2300 fps. My drop at that range is just over a foot and the wind isn't bad either.

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I did some research with the Hornaday Standard Ballistic Calculator and came up with these results:

B.C. for a 300 grain XTP / 300 grain / .444 Marlin = .245
B.C. for a 300 grain Interlock JHP / .45-70 = .199
So the .444 wins on BC.
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The maximum muzzle velocities listed for 300 grain JHP bullets with any Hodgdon or IMR powder were:

about 2400 FPS for .45-70
about 2200 FPS for .444
So the .45-70 wins on maximum possible velocity with a 300 grain bullet
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Assuming a velocity for each of 2000 FPS, and a zero range of 125 yards, the velocities and bullet drop was:
.444 Marlin
at125 yards: 1635 FPS and zero
at 250 yards: 1331 FPS and -19.1" drop

.45-70
at 125 yards: 1618 FPS and zero
at 250 yards: 1218 FPS and -21.3" drop

So the .444 wins because of a better BC, but not by much.
At 125 yards, the difference is negligible. With these cartridges most shots taken will not exceed 150 yards anyway.
The recoil impulse would be the same with both cartridges since bullet weight and velocity are the same.
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Also, since the .45-70 is a larger case, it can be loaded to higher velocities with the same weight of bullet.
And so, by loading it slightly higher to 2200 FPS without changing the other parameters:

at 125 yards: 1727 FPS and zero
at 250 yards: 1341 FPS and -17.1" drop

So with very little increase in velocity and recoil impulse, the .45-70 can exceed the performance of the .444 out past 150 yards.
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Also, since bullet weights of 350 grains and 405 grains can be used in .45-70 in the 1895 Marlin, but not in the .444 Marlin, it is clearly a more versatile and powerful rifle and cartridge combination.

I like optics for hunting. I have relatively poor eye sight so optics are kind of a necessity for me to really get a good look at what I'm shooting at/through/around. The extra light gathering is a huge bonus as well. I like 3-9 and 2-7's with as wide of a field of view as possible. Much better than a fixed 4x in my opinion because of the field of view and ability to get a better look at thing farther away.

SwampWolf said:

in the interest of having a better handling, lever-action, big bore rifle that looks "appropriate for the genre", I'd consider mounting a good receiver sight (like the Williams "FoolProof") in lieu of a scope.

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These days I would want Skinner sights. All steel.

I liked the old Lyman receiver sights that were all-steel that were available in the 1970s, but I never cared for the Williams "hardened aluminum" construction. I found that in a Williams 5-D receiver sight and the small sight that mounted to a .22 rim-fire grooved receiver, that it was all too easy to strip the adjustment screws. Also, If you banged the Lyman sight you might knock it a bit off zero, but with the Williams, the hard cast aluminum elevation bridge might crack. The Foolproof is a better sight than the 5-D, with micrometer adjustments, but still not as rugged as the old Lyman sights were, in my opinion.

Old Stumpy said:

I did some research with the Hornaday Standard Ballistic Calculator and came up with these results:

B.C. for a 300 grain XTP / 300 grain / .444 Marlin = .245
B.C. for a 300 grain Interlock JHP / .45-70 = .199
So the .444 wins on BC.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The maximum muzzle velocities listed for JHP bullets with any Hodgdon or IMR powder were:

about 2400 FPS for .45-70
about 2200 FPS for .444
So the .45-70 wins on maximum possible velocity with a 300 grain bullet
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Assuming a velocity for each of 2000 FPS, and a zero range of 125 yards, the velocities and bullet drop was:
.444 Marlin
at125 yards: 1635 FPS and zero
at 250 yards: 1331 FPS and -19.1" drop

.45-70
at 125 yards: 1618 FPS and zero
at 250 yards: 1218 FPS and -21.3" drop

So the .444 wins because of a better BC, but not by much.
At 125 yards, the difference is negligible. With these cartridges most shots taken will not exceed 150 yards anyway.
The recoil impulse would be the same with both cartridges since bullet weight and velocity are the same.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, since the .45-70 is a larger case, it can be loaded to higher velocities with the same weight of bullet.
And so, by loading it slightly higher to 2200 FPS without changing the other parameters:

at 125 yards: 1727 FPS and zero
at 250 yards: 1341 FPS and -17.1" drop

So with very little increase in velocity and recoil impulse, the .45-70 can exceed the performance of the .444 out past 150 yards.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, since bullet weights of 350 grains and 405 grains can be used in .45-70 in the 1895 Marlin, but not in the .444 Marlin, it is clearly a more versatile and powerful rifle and cartridge combination.

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No arguments on the 45-70 being more powerful both in a lever action. 45-70 has power in spades.

Here is the difference

to hit 2200 fps with the 444 in a 7 lb rifle generates 36 ft lbs of recoil.
to hit 2400 fps with the 45-70 in a 7 lb rifle generates 47 ft lbs of recoil

That is a huge difference, yet ballisticlly the 444 does a tiny bit better and will penetrate better to boot. In my personal opinion the 444 delivers the goods without beating you to death which is why I like it better.

Old Stumpy said:

These days I would want Skinner sights. All steel.

I liked the old Lyman receiver sights that were all-steel that were available in the 1970s, but I never cared for the Williams "hardened aluminum" construction. I found that in a Williams 5-D receiver sight and the small sight that mounted to a .22 rim-fire grooved receiver, that it was all too easy to strip the adjustment screws. Also, If you banged the Lyman sight you might knock it a bit off zero, but with the Williams, the hard cast aluminum elevation bridge might crack. The Foolproof is a better sight than the 5-D, with micrometer adjustments, but still not as rugged as the old Lyman sights were, in my opinion.

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I really like the williams wgrs sights, but I have had issues with the screws on mine coming loose and the sight sliding off. If I needed to trust it to defend my life or feed me I would go with the skinner as well.

I would not put a scope with a 20 mm bell on it , I had a 1.5-4x-20 mm on my Winchester 94 timber carbine in 444 marlin and at just before daylight on a cloudy morning I could not shoot a real nice buck in with several does do to low light(dam near dark), I mounted a 4x-32 mm leupold on it and I,m sure I could have made that shot with the 4x scope.

Old Stumpy said:

Also, If you banged the Lyman sight you might knock it a bit off zero, but with the Williams, the hard cast aluminum elevation bridge might crack.

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I've used the Williams "FoolProof" and "5D" receiver sights (FoolProof describes the set screw feature which helps prevent the inadvertent movement of the adjustment screws and the 5D moniker reflected its early retail price-I paid five bucks for a new one back in the early sixties) for over half a century on different rifles (currently I have them on four centerfire rifles; including an older Remington Model 760 with the drop on the stock better suited for irons, chambered in 30-06, a Winchester Model 94, chambered in 30-30, a Winchester Model 1886 "Extra Light Weight", chambered in 45-70 and a Savage Model 99, chambered in .358-along with a Beeman Model C1 air gun) while hunting mostly in heavy cover and never had one break for any reason. I suppose it could happen and aluminum would likely bend or break before steel but, if we're being picky, steel can rust and aluminum can't.

I can only speak from my own experience and those of friends I have. I would never disparage the Lyman sight and one long time, deer hunting friend of mine swears by them (I think the model he depends on is the 66, but I could be wrong about that). At any rate, the main purpose of my post was to suggest considering a peep sight in lieu of a scope for the reasons I cited. To be clear, I'm not against scopes, most of my rifles have them.

someguy2800 said:

No arguments on the 45-70 being more powerful both in a lever action. 45-70 has power in spades.

Here is the difference

to hit 2200 fps with the 444 in a 7 lb rifle generates 36 ft lbs of recoil.
to hit 2400 fps with the 45-70 in a 7 lb rifle generates 47 ft lbs of recoil

That is a huge difference, yet ballisticlly the 444 does a tiny bit better and will penetrate better to boot. In my personal opinion the 444 delivers the goods without beating you to death which is why I like it better.

Click to expand...

If you are loading to the max, then the .444 has 76% of the calculated recoil impulse of the .45-70 at these velocities.
That's IF you load it to the max. And, while this is the recoil impulse on paper, what is the actual felt recoil by the shooter?
Shooters vary in stature, weight, how fleshy they are, and perceived sensitivity to recoil.
Some might find the recoil of both of these loads very punishing, while others might find that neither load is.
Consider that a Marlin 336 in .30-30 has a recoil impulse of only 11.1 ft/lbs with the 150 grain bullet.
Yet some shooters find it uncomfortable if the rifle has no recoil pad, while others find it mild.
The point is that perceived recoil is often relative.

Also, I pointed out that if both cartridges were loaded to the same velocity with the same 300 grain bullet, that the velocity and drop at 125 yards was not significantly different, and that the recoil impulse would be the same.
And, at 250 yards the velocity of the .45-70 was still about 91.5% of the .444, and the drop, while horrible with both, was only slightly less with the .45-70 (-21.3" versus -19.1").
Also, the .45-70 bullet (.458" versus .429") punches a bigger hole, which compensates to some degree at 250 yards for having a bit less velocity.
And, at such low velocities (1331 fps and 1218 fps), killing power is all about the weight and the caliber, and not about bullet expansion. Certainly the .45-70 penetrated deeply and killed many bison and bears in the late 1800s at such velocities with ease.
But really, with such horrible trajectories and drop at 250 yards, why would anyone choose either cartridge for these ranges? 150 Yards is more reasonable.

SwampWolf said:

I've used the Williams "FoolProof" and "5D" receiver sights (FoolProof describes the set screw feature which helps prevent the inadvertent movement of the adjustment screws and the 5D moniker reflected its early retail price-

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SwampWolf said:

never had one break for any reason. I suppose it could happen and aluminum would likely bend or break before steel but, if we're being picky, steel can rust and aluminum can't.

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Your mileage may vary. I stripped the windage screws on a 5-D too easily in my opinion. And the .22 receiver sight (guide sight?) that clamps to the tip-off dovetail broke after an impact with something.
The Foolproof is a better sight than these, and as long as the locking screws are secured without undue force I think that these are okay.
The Skinner rear sight is just stronger, simpler, more compact, and better, and not much more expensive.

I would also consider a peep sight rather than a scope for moderate ranges. Good ones are tougher, smaller, and less likely to be damaged or knocked off zero.

Old Stumpy said:

If you are loading to the max, then the .444 has 76% of the calculated recoil impulse of the .45-70 at these velocities.
That's IF you load it to the max. And, while this is the recoil impulse on paper, what is the actual felt recoil by the shooter?
Shooters vary in stature, weight, how fleshy they are, and perceived sensitivity to recoil.
Some might find the recoil of both of these loads very punishing, while others might find that neither load is.
Consider that a Marlin 336 in .30-30 has a recoil impulse of only 11.1 ft/lbs with the 150 grain bullet.
Yet some shooters find it uncomfortable if the rifle has no recoil pad, while others find it mild.
The point is that perceived recoil is often relative.

Also, I pointed out that if both cartridges were loaded to the same velocity with the same 300 grain bullet, that the velocity and drop at 125 yards was not significantly different, and that the recoil impulse would be the same.
And, at 250 yards the velocity of the .45-70 was still about 91.5% of the .444, and the drop, while horrible with both, was only slightly less with the .45-70 (-21.3" versus -19.1").
Also, the .45-70 bullet (.458" versus .429") punches a bigger hole, which compensates to some degree at 250 yards for having a bit less velocity.
And, at such low velocities (1331 fps and 1218 fps), killing power is all about the weight and the caliber, and not about bullet expansion. Certainly the .45-70 penetrated deeply and killed many bison and bears in the late 1800s at such velocities with ease.
But really, with such horrible trajectories and drop at 250 yards, why would anyone choose either cartridge for these ranges? 150 Yards is more reasonable.

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Well in this case we are talking about the same model rifle chambered in two different calibers so I think 25% recoil in certain to be noticeable. And the same 300 grain bullet loaded to the same velocity in both will have a slightly lower recoil because the 444 takes a lower charge weight to do it. My whole point is not that the 45-70 is bad, I own both, just that for pretty much any hunting situation I can see in north america the 444 will do the exact same thing with a little less drop and drift and less recoil to the shooter. An interesting comparison would be to compare the 444 loaded with a 300 grain bullet and the 45-70 loaded with a 350 grain bullet, both loaded to 30 ft lbs of recoil.