1959 S&W model 12 Airwieight

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robbt

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hello, a picture below is a 1959 S&W model 12 Airweight , basically a
S&W Aircrewman with a steel cylinder, I am inquiring on what loads I can use
in the old girl without harming the revolver , lets discount +P.
seeking a carry load in the rare time I will carry concealed .
any ideas does anyone else on the forum have or carry one.
I bought this revolver because I don not want to shoot & Harm
my Aircrewman.
please post, robbt

Mk6gCMk.jpg
 
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hi gotboostvr, unsure on the grips I sold them on another forum ,
I have a set of Herretts on the revolver currently seeking a carry load
unsure if anyone still make 125 jacket hollow points .
wonder how the hollow points would work on giant
mutant Ants , sorry I really love the movie THEM.

just a thought robbt
 
I'd stick with standard pressure 158gr LSWC or 148gr wadcutters.

Side note, those groups look like a set of Altamont boot grips.

Agree with this. I have several S&W "pinned" snubs but not that particular model. The ammo box pictured appears to be period correct. I shot plenty of military issue .38 Special when I was in uniform fifty years ago and found that mil. spec. .38 Sp ball (130 gr?) ammunition was anemic at best although I could hit what I aimed at and, as they say, that was the point of the exercise.
I shoot Winchester 158 gr semi wad cutter in my older Smith revolvers and recommend the same. Can't help you with the grips as I always leave mine with the original factory.
 
The load for these older 38 Specials is a 158 lead RN or LSWC with 3.5 grs Bullseye. As best I can tell, over the chronograph, this is a factory equivalent, standard pressure load, and it shoots to point of aim in these older fixed sight revolvers.

I have shot thousands upon thousands of 38 Special rounds using 3.5 grains of Bullseye with LSWC, JHP, LRN, LBBFPRN, etc. Point of aim between the bullets type is close enough that I cannot tell a difference between bullets. I truly think that my flinch causes more variation in impact than bullet configuration. Velocities are so similar it would take a statistical analysis, (perhaps Students T test?) to see if there is a velocity difference between a LSWC and a LRN of the same alloy. I have shot that load in many revolvers, some I still own, some I do not. I have shot that load in 38 Snubbies, four inch barreled 38’s, and 357 Revolvers. It shoots very well. This is real world data, not shot from pressure barrels.

The dumped charges are as similar as I can make them, given a Dillion progressive, there are variations due to which primers I used. Primer use is based on who was making the cheapest primer at the time of loading. Winchester has been the consistently low cost primer maker for a while, most loads are WSP. I have never found a need to use the same case, so I am using brass that has been fired God Knows how many times and a rainbow of headstamps. All of which shoot fine.

I have shot other powders and other loads, but Bullseye is so constantly accurate and shoots to Point of Aim in the fixed sight revolvers, that I have standardized on that load and powder and see no reason to chase the “Powder de jour” . It also is close to the non +P factory ammunition I have shot in terms of velocity. So I consider this load equivalent to factory ammunition.


Taurus M85 B2UL 2" Barrel


158 LSWC 3.5 grs Bullseye thrown, Mixed Brass WSP 11-Dec-04 T = 54 F

Ave Vel = 686.3
Std Dev = 13.63
ES 58.48
High 718.8
Low 660.3
N = 30

shot little high and centered


158 LRN Master Factory Ammo 30-Dec-04 T = 56 F

Ave Vel = 698.2
Std Dev = 20.56
ES 105.8
High 753.5
Low 647.6
N = 32

shot 6" high centered,until barrel leaded


158 LSWC 3.5 grs Bullseye Mixed brass Fed 100 30-Dec-04 T = 56 F

Ave Vel = 706.2
Std Dev = 23.45
ES 81.94
High 748
Low 666.1
N = 48


8BIn9Dj.jpg


Colt Detective Special mfgr 1963 24-Jul-99 T = 100 F !

158 gr LRN 3.5 grs Bullseye thrown, CCI primers mixed cases

Average 751 fps
Standard Deviation 32 fps
Extreme Spread 90 fps
High 805
Low 715
Recorded shots 22


158 LRN 3.5 grs Bullseye WSP Mixed cases 8-Jan-06 T = 52 F

Ave Vel = 675.9
Std Dev = 18.6
ES 96.18
High 723.9
Low 627.7
N = 32

158 LSWC 3.5 grs Bullseye WSP Mixed cases 8-Jan-06 T = 58 F

Ave Vel = 706.8
Std Dev = 15.55
ES 65.87
High 742.9
Low 677
N = 32

a5Jxii3.jpg

Colt Cobra 2" barrel 30-Jan-05 T = 42 F

158 gr LRN 3.5 grs Bullseye thrown, Fed 100 primers mixed cases

Average 696.6
Std Dev 20.49
Extreme Spread 72.93
High 745.5
Low 672.6
13 recorded shots

shoots point of aim

Colt Police Positive Special 4" Barrel mfgr 1930


158 LRN 3.5grs Bullseye Mixed cases Fed 100
4-Sep-05 T = 72 F

Ave Vel = 759.2
Std Dev = 36
ES 104.8
High 813
Low 709
N = 32

158 LRN 3.5grs Bullseye Mixed cases WSP
29-Jan-06 T = 68 F

Ave Vel = 760.3
Std Dev = 27.53
ES 111.4
High 814.1
Low 702.6
N = 29

158 JHP 3.5grs Bullseye Mixed cases WSP
29-Jan-06 T = 68 F

Ave Vel = 633.1
Std Dev = 41.32
ES 113.2
High 706.7
Low 593.5
N = 6

dRasAhw.jpg
 
My present .38 Special carry load is the 135 gr Speer "short barrel" Gold Dot. It is +P but I don't shoot many of them. My practice load is standard speed 158-160 gr RN, loaded with HP38. My recent production has been underloaded because IDPA reduced the SSR power factor to 105 which is down in midrange wadcutter level.
 
hi gotboostvr, unsure on the grips I sold them on another forum ,
I have a set of Herretts on the revolver currently seeking a carry load
unsure if anyone still make 125 jacket hollow points .
wonder how the hollow points would work on giant
mutant Ants , sorry I really love the movie THEM.

just a thought robbt
 
hi Jim , if possible can you post a picture of the 135 gr Speer "short barrel" Gold Dot.

many thanks, robbt
 
I would be concerned with 125 hrs bullets- rapid acceleration being stressful to the forcing come.
Multiple respondents have recommended wadcutters. That is what I would load if I were you.
 
The forcing cone isn't what fails on the Model 12, it's the frame cracking under the barrel. If they do fail, it seems to occur at pretty low round counts, indicating that the fundamental issue might be a systematic manufacturing defect or alloy problem. There are Model 12s with thousands of rounds fired, including jacketed +P, that are perfectly fine, and some that look NIB and let go during the first box of 50. I don't shoot +P in mine, but don't baby it with mild wadcutters either.
 
What dash # is that model 12? I've never seen a 12 no dash, but I've owned 12 dash 2 or 3's. The frame on the 12 - 2 and 12 - 3 is about 2/10's inch thinner than a standard K frame. That was an effort to lighten the weight of the gun and factory grips are correspondingly thinner. The 12-4's had the frame restored to the standard K frame thickness. The fact that you found those grips that fit correctly makes me think your gun maybe a dash 4. Frame cracking on the 12's is common. If it was mine I wouldn't shoot it.
 
Slamfire thanks for posting those 3.5gr Bullseye loads. I have loaded those before but had no idea how weak they were. Those aren't even in the same ballpark as the old 38 Colt loads that led to the development of the 38 Special.

I had a model 12 many years ago but someone else wanted it worse than me and agreed to the inflated price I quoted so I sold it without ever test firing it.
 
I've often wondered why the S&W aluminum K frame can't handle .38spl +p but the aluminum J frame can handle .357mag.
 
Slamfire thanks for posting those 3.5gr Bullseye loads. I have loaded those before but had no idea how weak they were. Those aren't even in the same ballpark as the old 38 Colt loads that led to the development of the 38 Special.

I did fire factory 158 grain bullets for comparison, and 3.5 grs Bullseye is right there. I assume the factories have pressure gauges and are keeping within standard pressures for 38 Specials.

But you know, they shoot well, and all I am doing is paper punching, or shooting on steel gongs. I don't need wrist snapping high velocity, or fireballs. So I am very positive about my loads. These loads and my S&W M10 are the only combination which I can shoot standing, double action, and keep all my bullets on my 12" gong target at 50 yards.

And if they seem wimpy, that is all to the good for your rare revolver.
 
I did fire factory 158 grain bullets for comparison, and 3.5 grs Bullseye is right there. I assume the factories have pressure gauges and are keeping within standard pressures for 38 Specials.

I looked up your loads on the Alliant Powder site and your speeds are right in line with what they are supposed to be. But since the late 1970s to early 1980s the 38 Special ain't Special anymore. It has been reduced in power to the point its no better than the 38 Colt that caused so many complaints in the American/Filipino war way back in 1899. Early 38 Special loads would shoot a 158gr lead bullet around 900fps from a 6" barrel. But yes those loads are more pleasant to shoot. Good enough for target shooting anyway.
 
I looked up your loads on the Alliant Powder site and your speeds are right in line with what they are supposed to be. But since the late 1970s to early 1980s the 38 Special ain't Special anymore. It has been reduced in power to the point its no better than the 38 Colt that caused so many complaints in the American/Filipino war way back in 1899. Early 38 Special loads would shoot a 158gr lead bullet around 900fps from a 6" barrel. But yes those loads are more pleasant to shoot. Good enough for target shooting anyway.

Phil Sharpe copied pressure tested data in hisComplete Guode to Handloading, but the reloading manuals of the day, such as my Lyman41st, (1957 edition)
GpBUEvu.jpg

and my Speer No 8 (1970), none of the data is pressure tested. Therefore the data is rather wild and woolly. My Speer No. 8 claims 880 fps with a 158 LSWC with 3.5 grains Bullseye in a 6 inch revolver. I am not getting anywere near that level of velocity with my loads:

Colt Trooper MKIII 6" Barrel

158 gr LRN 3.5 grs Bullseye 38 SPL cases WSP
30-Dec-15 T = 55 ° F

Ave Vel = 768
Std Dev = 18
ES = 72.03
High = 798
Low = 725.9
N = 18

158 gr LRN 3.5 grs Bullseye 38 SPL cases WSP
13-Sep-18 T = 72 ° F

Ave Vel = 764
Std Dev = 24
ES = 87.45
High = 804.1
Low = 716.6
N = 21

158 LSWC Factory Zero 38 Special ammunition
13-Sep-18 T = 72 ° F

Ave Vel = 739
Std Dev = 38
ES = 152.4
High = 804.1
Low = 651.6
N = 18


VTtDI0h.jpg

So I have to wonder, why does their test equipment provide velocities at least 100 fps faster than mine? I am not of the opinion that I should bump up my loads to equal their velocities because, their data is not pressure tested, and I don't have pressure gauges either.
 
Slamfire thats a nice looking Colt. And those speeds you are getting are just what the 38 Colt got from a 6" barreled gun. The old 38 Colt was rated 755fps from a 6" barrel with a 150gr hollow base bullet. The new 38 Special used a solid base bullet and the weight went to the common 158grs.

Those old loading books are fun to read aren't they?
 
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