It takes 12 rounds to stop a threat, no really, it did.

9mm. Just saying.

labnoti said:

9mm. Just saying.

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https://www.policeone.com/police-he...5-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job-clGBbLYpnqqHxwMq/

....In this free-for-all, the assailant had, in fact, been struck 14 times. Any one of six of these wounds — in the heart, right lung, left lung, liver, diaphragm, and right kidney — could have produced fatal consequences…“in time,” Gramins emphasizes....

Remarkably, the gunman was still showing vital signs when EMS arrived. Sheer determination, it seemed, kept him going, for no evidence of drugs or alcohol was found in his system.

He was transported to a trauma center where Gramins also was taken. They shared an ER bay with only a curtain between them as medical personnel fought unsuccessfully to save the robber’s life....

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.45ACP.

Just saying.

This is why when I want security I leave the pop gun on bedside and grab AK. A pistol is a lousy rifle or shotgun substitute.

7.62x39, anything less is uncivilized.

Jeff White said:

Dr Gary Roberts says that any caliber/load .38 Special or larger that penetrates at least 13 inches in properly calibrated ballistic gelatin is adequate for defensive use.

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Dr. Sydney Vail and Dr. Martin Fackler also say that and my understanding is that those three are THE experts in this field. So, I'll take their word for it.

labnoti said:

9mm. Just saying.

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What? Blasphemer!

Burn him!

We all know that "with modern ammunition, the 9mm is an effective Rhino stopper". We know this. Lots of experts tell us so. Many 9mm aficionados tell us so. Ergo, it's obvious that the fellow on the receiving end in this example is an alien or a mutant because "with modern ammunition (that is apparently only available in 9mm), 9mm is just as effective as larger calibers" . Why, had he been 7 times with 45 acp, he would have laughingly killed his assailant before he could have changed magazines. You see, 45 acp is only available in ancient FMJ round nose, so it does not benefit from modern ammunition. It's surprising that these things have to be explained at all...

I've seen a full grown horse topple over, dead as Elvis, from a single .22lr gunshot.
Just like bears---the only thing about 'em that you can trust is----you can't trust 'em.

If you go off thinking 12 shots will stop an attack, Murphy will demand 13 or 14, or 2 but never 12!

Does this particular single data point have any bearing on our recent revolver vs semi-auto for self-defense debate? Could you have fired 12 rounds from a revolver in that time period under those stresses?

I want to point out that we don't know how many of the 12 shots heard in the video were hits, and we don't know where they hit. In some frames, we can see the officer at very short range with his gun on the assailant. With his sights already on the assailant and plenty of time for the sight picture and shot, it seems like he would have hit center-mass. But we can also see that later in the video, the officer has moved around to the front (other side) of the cruiser. So he may have been moving and shooting which makes it less certain that those twelve were all good hits. I suspect that the officer was increasingly concerned about return firing coming as soon as they began shooting and they may have started circling the car. They certainly got the job done, and I don't intend any criticism of the officer. I just want to point out that we can't assume there were twelve good hits and that the reaction from the assailant and the effect of the bullets should be judged based on more knowledge of what actually happened.

The video is certainly credible evidence against the idea that one hit will send a person flipping back off a hidden springboard while it blows open a huge cavern in their chest, their arms fly out and they drop everything they were holding.

It's safe to think of any handgun (regardless of the cartridge) as a puncturing machine. It's not sane to think of handgun terminal effects, even magnums, as explosive. We should think, puncture, puncture, puncture... not "it will blow your head clean off."

Also, it should be recognized this case has a high probability of being "suicide by cop." From the appearance of the video, the officer used good judgment about when to begin firing, and they did not hit the hostage.

The actual results of an armed confrontation that requires gunplay are so random that it should be avoided at all costs - except when you have no other choice...

There really are a few individuals that you might have to outrun (or outlast) - after hitting them with a fatal shot. Your actual tactics (movement, cover, concealment, etc.) in a gunfight are probably more important than whatever weapon is in your hands in my opinion.

At least that’s my take on it. This what I preached to the officers I was responsible for - all those years ago...

lemaymiami said:

The actual results of an armed confrontation that requires gunplay are so random that it should be avoided at all costs - except when you have no other choice...

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So true, especially for civilian SD.

When problem solving, if a certain approach is not working after a few attempts, it's only reasonable to try something different.

Though I suppose Police Departments don't train their officers to make shots at the brain. Bad P.R. or some such.

Capacity, it’s better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

Kleanbore said:

That's the way it is!

Indeed!

Who might any of them be?

That hows a complete midundertanding.

Modern, premium grade defensive bullets put 9mm penetration into the range of "effective".

Some other calibers, (eg, .40 S&W were already there, and increased penetration would not be useful in stopping humans.

Very well put. That bears repeating.

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All you need to know:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sarcasm

A few years back my CC instructor said about 20% of people shot die, but about 80% of people cut with a knife dies. Unless a vital organ is hit, usually the ambulance can get you to the hospital in time. I have heard more than once, shoot until the threat is over, be that 2 or 22 rounds.

I believe a knife that is long enough has superior wounding capability to most single handgun bullets. A saber or cutlass competently wielded almost certainly has better "stopping power." Perhaps that's why the cavalry initially considered the revolver a back-up weapon to their sabers and carried the gun on their weak side. The problem with that is the saber works exclusively at short range, and the cavalry figured that out pretty quickly.

It takes as many shots as are necessary, whether that be one or more than one has.

My personal opinion is carry as many as you are willing or capable of, but obviously the more the better.

alphakoncepts said:

https://gunstreamer.com/v/4rYlNf?b=1

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From this video we can determine, absolutely nothing.

Fine Figure of a Man said:

From this video we can determine, absolutely nothing.

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From the video I could tell that it took a little time for the bad guy's brain to register that something was leaking.

alphakoncepts said:

A video out of East Columbus Ohio took 12 rounds over a period of more than 10 seconds for the aggressor to stop.

"Nobody needs a magazine larger than 8 rounds!" Right? LOL

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No one needs more than an 8-round mag; they merely need a mag that holds 8-effective rounds.

45acp = God’s Caliber

Caliber war, round count war, grip war, bore axis war, magazine war, revolver vs semi auto war, beauty war. Man it never stops on the internet.