Next Up; Background Checks for Rentals?

I guess it's good that a felon was caught with a gun, but in fairness it should be noted that he is not the one who carelessly shot the safety officer. It's not a crime to have idiot friends. If it were, I probably would be in jail, too.

Tim

If the news article is accurately reporting what happened, it sounds as though it didn't really matter who had rented the pistol, but who was negligently handling it when it fired. If the "friend" had been the one who had rented the pistol, would she have done anything differently?

According to the Hillsborough County Sheriff’s Office, Hall’s friend was shooting the gun he rented at the range when a shell casing went down her shirt. She lowered the firearm in her hand but accidentally turned the muzzle toward a range safety instructor who was working with her.

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On the other hand, I can understand the idea of doing background checks when in the business of loaning guns to people. How else would you (as the business owner or employee) know whether the person to whom you're loaning the gun is lawfully permitted to possess one, let alone go off and engage in shooting one in your range business?

Granted, on-site instant background checks won't catch everyone. (Example, someone just had a DV restraining order issued against them for a DV case that's being investigated, but it hasn't yet been entered into the state's restraining order system.) It mostly likely would've caught the convicted felon in this case, though.

Sad to hear about the loss of the leg. Damn.

Spats McGee said:

Doesn't sound to me like the rental was the problem so much as The Hot Brass Dance. ...

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Abso-freaking-lutely.

No matter whether I was teaching LE or private classes, there came a point when I made to sure to include as part of the live-fire safety discussion what everyone needed to keep in mind if/when the time came that they may find themselves doing the Hot Brass Watusi.

P5 Guy said:

Going to need 'Red Flags' too. How many stories thru the years have been about rental range suicides?

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Lots of places won't rent guns to people who show up to shoot solo, unless they've brought at least one gun of their own. It's obviously not foolproof but it addresses the most obvious scenario.

As for the topic, this:
https://www.nssf.org/rental-guns-and-your-ffl-growing-your-business-while-staying-compliant/

While no NICS background checks are required before renting a gun to an individual, retailers are still prohibited from renting a firearm to any person whom they believe is prohibited from receiving or possessing a firearm by law. The same prohibitions listed under 18 USC 922(d) and 922(g) and on the front of ATF Form 4473 (see items 11b-l2) apply to persons renting firearms for use on your premises.

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You may be wondering how you and your staff can identify the difference between prohibited and non-prohibited persons when it comes to firearm rentals; it is certainly easier to ascertain this difference when selling a gun. As you know, a sale requires both a completed ATF Form 4473 and an approved NICS background check. However, since a firearm rental is not considered a transfer, a retailer cannot access NICS to conduct a NICS check. As a result, some retailers develop their own rental form questionnaires. These questionnaires use language from questions in items 11b through 12 from the Form 4473. Federally licensed retailers can also ask the same information required by items 13 though 15 and item 20c of the Form 4473 on their personally created rental form. It is a good idea to have the person renting the firearm sign the form attesting to its accuracy.

It should be noted that the actual ATF F 4473 should not be used for firearm rentals. Remember, you must be reasonably sure that the person renting a firearm from you, for use on your premises, is not prohibited by law from receiving or possessing the firearm. Federal law and regulation do not spell out the specifics of how to make this determination, but the responsibility of not knowingly renting firearms to prohibited persons sits squarely on your shoulders as a licensed firearms retailer.

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So at least as far as the Feds are concerned, range rentals are subject to crystal ball readings since you can't NICS a rental customer and can at most only go on their own word and have them sign something stating they're not a prohibited person.

A affordable step a range could use would be Google the persons name. However that is far from being reliable and could be opening up a bigger can of worms.

Nebraska, where I used to live, issues CCW permits and handgun acquisition permits. Without one or the other, you can't legally acquire a handgun. (There are sensible exceptions such as gifts within your immediate family.) Even though range rentals are another exception, the range I used required a permit to rent any of their guns. (Gun clubs require a current permit for membership and most private sellers require them of buyers for any firearm.)

From the article! Say it isn't so! A felon not following the LAW?? OMG

He probably filled out a form and disclaimer as well.

"It's infuriating to know that this tragedy could have been prevented, and an innocent person would not have been injured had Eric Hall followed the law as a convicted felon and not rented the weapon to begin with,"

They're working on just such a law in Michigan after a 2018 shooting where a prohibited person rented a gun at an indoor range, then was able to walk out of the facility with the weapon, went to his ex-girlfriend's workplace, and shot her dead.

Notwithstanding how the perp was able to walk out of a controlled indoor range, and out of a gun shop with a rental pistol, the legislature decided to work on requiring either a CPL or a NICS check for all gun rentals.

fastbolt said:

Abso-freaking-lutely.

No matter whether I was teaching LE or private classes, there came a point when I made to sure to include as part of the live-fire safety discussion what everyone needed to keep in mind if/when the time came that they may find themselves doing the Hot Brass Watusi.

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Anybody I would agree to teach would have to agree to wear a high-necked, long-sleeved top, long pants or skirt, closed shoes, and a brimmed hat.

F-111 John said:

They're working on just such a law in Michigan after a 2018 shooting where a prohibited person rented a gun at an indoor range, then was able to walk out of the facility with the weapon, went to his ex-girlfriend's workplace, and shot her dead.

Notwithstanding how the perp was able to walk out of a controlled indoor range, and out of a gun shop with a rental pistol, the legislature decided to work on requiring either a CPL or a NICS check for all gun rentals.

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What was the staff supposed to do? Shoot him as he ran past and out the front door?

.455_Hunter said:

What was the staff supposed to do? Shoot him as he ran past and out the front door?

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That's not what he did.

This particular gun shop/indoor range is the one I frequent. When you rent a lane, you give the front counter your Driver's License and they hold it until you finish and check out and pay up.

If you rent a pistol, the pistol is taken to the RSO who then gives it to the renter. When finished, the renter is supposed to give the rental pistol back to the RSO, then go to the front counter and retrieve his Driver's License and pay for the range and rental.

This guy just shoved the pistol into his range bag and walked out of the store very casually, without stopping at the counter, and without his Driver's License.

The failure was that the RSO didn't realize that the guy left the range, and didn't leave the rental gun behind. The store didn't even realize the pistol was missing until the police showed up to inform them of what happened.

I've been there on busy Saturdays, and there is one RSO to monitor 8 lanes. Often the RSO is also giving instruction to first time shooters while also 'monitoring' the line. They've since changed their procedures, and there are now two RSOs any time there is any instruction going on.

Here's an article on the incident. Not sure if you'll be paywalled to read it or not.

https://www.lansingstatejournal.com...ing-timothy-olin-gun-rachel-duncan/467578002/

My local range does rentals, had two suicide in some very short period (in one week? Second likely copycatting the opportunity...they hadn't had one before that for like 20 years). Never to my knowledge, and I know them pretty well, any other issues such as shootings or theft.

They went to a 24 waiting period for new members coming to do a rental. No exceptions. I do not think they even updated it to give CHLs a pass, and even though it's just a hold, no check, that seems to scare off everyone as they assume it's a background check as well.

ALL people on the range give up DL, same wait period applies to all those using a rental.

Waiting periods do work.

I also think (not looking at the form right now) that they have a "I am not a felon or other prohibited person" sort of checkbox on the forms. That presumably is supposed to cover the range legally as there's no statutory or regulatory requirement for them to take specific positive actions to be sure a prohibited person does not use the firearm. No transfer took place as it's on their property, under their nominal control.

Likewise, the gun store would not be in trouble as far as I have ever heard for a prohibited person handing the gun pre-purchase at the counter, even if the NICS check comes back NO for that (or they fill out the form honestly, ha!). The prospective buyer is simply sent on their way and not allowed to touch a gun from then on, now that they know.

See the logic: Forget rentals, you'd have to do a NICS check for everyone who walks through the door before you let them touch guns or ammunition, and... I am not even sure on what grounds. CAN you submit one "just to check" vs for a specific transfer? I think not.

old lady new shooter said:

Anybody I would agree to teach would have to agree to wear a high-necked, long-sleeved top, long pants or skirt, closed shoes, and a brimmed hat.

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Not an uncommon set of dress requirements, overall, since "dress" can easily fall under the heading of "safety gear" on a range.

Something else to bear in mind is that the federal NICS system has some restrictions for its use. It's intended for the "transfer" of a firearm, and a temporary "loan" (or rental) isn't considered to meet the standard for a "transfer" (last I looked, anyway).

This was one of the problems CA discovered when it enacted its new law requiring background checks for ammunition purchases. Since buying ammunition isn't the same as buying a firearm, the state can't use the federal NICS system for its background check. Instead, it can only use its own state DOJ records system for the ammunition "background check". (Now, if someone is buying a firearm at the same time they're buying ammunition, then the NICS check is naturally able to be used, since the transfer of a firearm is involved, and as I understand it, then the NICS check is able to be used for the simultaneous ammunition purchase.)