Great groups but high ES...What can I do?

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dday911

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I have a savage model 10 and a rock river AR both in .223 that shoot amazing groups w IMR 8208 xbr
....55 blitz kings, 55 noslers, 55 v max,and 55 gr speers all shoot sub moa in both guns.
I have noticed that the extreme spreads in both guns w this powder are between 55 and 80 depending on the bullet and load etc.
Is there something I can do to reduce that?
Would a magnum primer help?
I guess I shouldn’t care, but curious if I can reduce that number and maybe tighten groups up in the process. Seems a flyer per 5 shot group that keeps me from 1/2” groups is the norm. Not bad just not touching the rest.
Thanks in advance.
Winchester and ppu brass and Winchester small rifle primers 2.25 oal are what I’m currently using. Brass is separated.
Loads vary from 2900 to 3100 FPS depending on gun, bullet, and load.
Anywhere between 24.4 and 25 grains of powder are all great!
 
Could be many things. If you have some match primers, I would try them first. Commercial brass has a lot of variation in case volume. If you have some good Lapua brass to use you may see a difference. A change in cheek pressure can cause these too.
 
Could be many things. If you have some match primers, I would try them first. Commercial brass has a lot of variation in case volume. If you have some good Lapua brass to use you may see a difference. A change in cheek pressure can cause these too.
to this end are you using some type of guage to measure the amount of headspace you are getting when you resize? As you use the cases multiple times the hardness in each case can vary and the amount of setback you get on the same setting can vary a little. Are you checking your base to ogive numbers to see if there the same? How are you setting final neck tension, mandrel, Lee collet or the factory button? Are the flash holes cleaned up on the inside???
 
I should also point out that I have a 12 year old competition electronics pro chronograph....
That could be some of my issue....it’s pretty fussy!
 
I should also point out that I have a 12 year old competition electronics pro chronograph....
That could be some of my issue....it’s pretty fussy!
That is a factor that we have no way to judge. Maybe shoot some loads with a know es (factory) to verify your measurements are even close???
 
Nice groups. I'd be happy with those targets. Some guys measure the capacity of the cases, check neck thickness, and sort by weight as well. I really don't know how much difference it makes, except for really long range shooting.
 
I don't have an answer but a question. The ES looks to be about 2% of the FPS (someone check my math, I did it in my head). Is this bad in this particular application?
 
I have a savage model 10 and a rock river AR both in .223 that shoot amazing groups w IMR 8208 xbr
....55 blitz kings, 55 noslers, 55 v max,and 55 gr speers all shoot sub moa in both guns.
I have noticed that the extreme spreads in both guns w this powder are between 55 and 80 depending on the bullet and load etc.
Is there something I can do to reduce that?
Would a magnum primer help?
I guess I shouldn’t care, but curious if I can reduce that number and maybe tighten groups up in the process. Seems a flyer per 5 shot group that keeps me from 1/2” groups is the norm. Not bad just not touching the rest.
Thanks in advance.
Winchester and ppu brass and Winchester small rifle primers 2.25 oal are what I’m currently using. Brass is separated.
Loads vary from 2900 to 3100 FPS depending on gun, bullet, and load.
Anywhere between 24.4 and 25 grains of powder are all great!
What kind of scale are you using for weighing powder
 
I wouldn't get too excited about the situation, for a couple of reasons.

First, if you are basing your "Extreme Spread" off a sample of just 5 or so rounds, you don't know your real, long term variation with any precision. It could easily be half or twice the variation of your sample.

I've tested a few different hand and commercial loads, and generally gotten Standard Deviations in the neighborhood of 30 FPS. That corresponds to an "ES" of about 70 FPS. My little Browning reliably puts them into 5/8" at 100 yards.

Just for grins, I fiddled with the reloading variables to get the Standard Deviation down into single digits. It didn't make a bit of measurable difference in the accuracy of the rifle.

If it's sub MOA, leave it alone, shoot it, and enjoy it.
 
I should also point out that I have a 12 year old competition electronics pro chronograph....
That could be some of my issue....it’s pretty fussy!
Depending upon sun light introduces a LOT of variation. The newer models are much better able to deal with this, or you can fit a constant light source.
 
Look familiar??
FeLiG23.jpg

That group came from this target, the 25.5gr load of the ladder test.
P1gfBgs.jpg

There's 3 things that caused the fliers in that 25.5gr group. It's easily a moa group which translates to "It's a good plinking load". If I were to step out with that load 500yds+ a 12" gong might not care but a 6" gong would make it interesting. Or shooting a 600yd reduced to 100yd service rifle target would show the weakness of that load considering the x-ring is +/- .4".

This 1st thing wrong with that load was the bullet. It's too short for the long jump of the chamber of the savage axis that fired those groups. The bullets used were home swaged .224" for the 223rem made out of 22lr cases and range lead/berm lead for cores.
tHQqhA5.jpg
The 2nd thing I did wrong was the 223rem cases. If you look at the target above you will see the words "mixed nato cases". What I used was free range brass that I picked up at the range. I sorted the brass into 2 piles, commercial & nato. I have no idea what headstamp was on those cases or how many times they were fired.

The 3rd thing I did wrong was grab some old ww sp primers I had laying around for 10+ years??? While most primers are good for plinking loads. BR primers are called just that for a reason.

What the deal with that target posted above was all about. Was I wanted to see how hard it would be to take a +/- $200 rifle, free home made bullets, free brass that was laying around and shoot moa groups. While 1 group doesn't mean much, the moa 5-shot groups are easily repeatable with that rifle/blammo ammo combo. It took 1 range trip to tell me it actually pretty easy to take a $200 rifle, home made bullets and mixed brass and do 5-shot groups that are under an inch @ 100yds.

In the past I've chased my tail looking for accuracy with the 223rem, 308w, 30-06 & 300mag. It all starts with a bullet that can be loaded long enough to get near to in the lands. Your brass needs to be match prepped and consistent. Then you need the right powder/primer combo for the caliber your using.

10+ years ago my brother was running a rock river ar with a wylde chamber. They were a extremely popular choice for the service rifle matches. A common load for that rifle ( a bunch of people used the same load in that rifle) for the 600yd line was a 80gr smk bullet loaded 10/1000th's off the lands. LC brass that got match prepped then kept sorted by how many times it was used and tossed at the 3x. Varget was the powder of choice and the load was over max (I will not post it for that reason) & the Remington 7 1/2 br primers were used. I can't even begin to count the # of people that used that bullet/brass/powder/primer/ar combo. My brother was up at Camp Perry 1 year with that combo and while he was on vendors row he asked 1 of the Hodgdon reps about that load and if it was safe. The rep replied "I hope so, I'm using the same load in my rock river".

Keep in mind that load was hot enough that you only got 3x loadings out of the lc brass. Anything over that and you stood a chance of the primers falling out and getting stuck between the receiver and the bolt. Ask me how I know.:fire::fire::fire:

Anyway, when you see high #'s and fliers you have a bunch of things to change. When you low #'s and fliers you have a component issue (cheap bullet/brass issue). You have high #'s and bugholes you have crimp issue, wrong powder, wrong primer for that powder or inconsistent ignition with the firearm.
 
Ok back on track,
The volocities listed below were recorded for researching a similar issue as you are inquiring about.
Although in my rifle one bullet and quality cases , , primers , neck tension all within tolerance. Those extreme speeds were evident on paper. the culprit or weak link was my scale, after replacing it with a tuned single kernel scale my groups settled down considerably.
Without this larger sample size I would not have found the problem as easily
 

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I'm surprised it took 14 parts for someone to notice he is using 2 kinds of brass.
I would fix that before chasing my tail on anything else.
If that doesn't work, I would check my powder measuring. Make sure you're as precise as possible. The tiny case amplifies your mistakes.
I found deburring flash holes and neck turning to help. But I don't like putting that much work into brass that may go flying.
 
Yes brass is separated....
I use one brass for the Rock river and the other for the bolt action.
These are both coyote rifles and my groups have rolled many....just trying to eliminate and tighten....

I’ve been loading this for three years....
Started reading all the experts posts and it got in my head...

I can’t hit em past 300 off a set of shooting sticks anyway.....that and they never set still coming to a call!
 
Seems to me, at minute of songdog @ under 300 yards, you have done well. Paper groups seem to be good too. Whether or not any more prep or changes are warranted is kinda up to you. Is tightening your groups by a 1/8" inch worth the extra effort?
 
I completely understand, shooting coyotes at 300 has to be tough , Especially using sticks holy crap!!
Keep up the good work out there. BTW
I’d like to tap your knowledge for a future coyote hunt myself if ya don’t mind I’ll save this thread.
J
 
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Yes brass is separated....
I use one brass for the Rock river and the other for the bolt action.
These are both coyote rifles and my groups have rolled many....just trying to eliminate and tighten....

I’ve been loading this for three years....
Started reading all the experts posts and it got in my head...

I can’t hit em past 300 off a set of shooting sticks anyway.....that and they never set still coming to a call!
Do you have h4895? If so, somewhere around 25.5 grains should get you well under moa.
Try shooting your current loads at 300. How accurate are they?
I've had MOA loads that were still MOA at 400. Others that were well under moa at 100 that were around 3 moa by 200.
 
Do you have h4895? If so, somewhere around 25.5 grains should get you well under moa.
Try shooting your current loads at 300. How accurate are they?
I've had MOA loads that were still MOA at 400. Others that were well under moa at 100 that were around 3 moa by 200.

That’s a great idea.
I will have to try that soon!
 
Thanks everyone for the great advice!
I think I’m gonna catch a calm day and shoot some groups at distance.
I’ll try a little if everything mentioned.
Until then I’ll keep shooting it!
 
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