How to lower ES

[capreppy]

Had my 223 rebarreled from a 24" 1/9 twist varmint profile to a 30" 1/7 twist bull profile (for my recoil sensitive members of my family plus the faster twist also allows me to run the 75 Amax and heavier).

I am doing load development for this rifle. I'm VERY fond of the Hornady 50gr Z-Max because they are cheap and shoot very well. I was able to shoot consistent 1/2 MOA groups out of the old barrel. When I was doing load development, I was able to shoot a 1/4 MOA group using Win headstamp brass, Fed 205M (Small Rifle Match Primer), 24gr H322. I had other loads as well, but this was obviously the load to run with.

I loaded up 50 more to run over the chrono (MagnetoSpeed v3). As I was running the loads over the chrono, I could see where each round landed. When a round was a little off, I could look over at the chrono and see the difference in the speed. This load on average runs 3350fps. When my ES is single digit, yes I saw one ragged hole. In general, my ES was an average of 20.

For this rifle, I have 4k pieces of Win headstamped brass dedicated to it. I like to load thousands when I have the downtime (like right now cause I'm unemployed, but that is about to end).

My brass is once or twice fired brass. I am putting the brass aside and plan to have a friend anneal them. I believe (need confirmation here) that this should help some with ES.

I dispense each load with an RCBS Chargemaster. The H322 is a very small extruded powder and meters very well. The Chargemaster meters to the tenth of a grain. I know I'm not going to get small single digit ES (that requires more expensive equipment that I have zero desire to get)

What are some things that I can do to help reduce my ES?

Neck Turning? This is NOT a tight necked chamber.

I know that weighing the brass for consistency will help and that is obviously a free upgrade (just requires time).

Other options? Or am I chasing the proverbial tail. :banghead:

 

[jwrowland77]

The more you make consistent, the lower it'll be.

Neck tension, bullet weight, bullet length base to ogive, primer seating force/depth, uniform flash holes, uniform primer pocket. Sort brass by internal capacity.

The three things that have helped me break into single digit ES, is neck turning. I have a factory rifle. It's not a tight chamber, but the consistency will still help. Two was sorting bullets by length base to ogive. Third was sorting by internal case capacity.

 

[capreppy]

The more you make consistent, the lower it'll be.

Neck tension, bullet weight, bullet length base to ogive, primer seating force/depth, uniform flash holes, uniform primer pocket. Sort brass by internal capacity.

The three things that have helped me break into single digit ES, is neck turning. I have a factory rifle. It's not a tight chamber, but the consistency will still help. Two was sorting bullets by length base to ogive. Third was sorting by internal case capacity.

I've looked at K&M, Sinclair and others for neck turning. I am VERY intrigued by the 21st Century Neck Turning Lathe. Sure it is expensive (at this point, what isn't), but the ability to speed through the neck turning process is worth the price of admission...IF it gets me closer to where I want to be.

Sorting by ogive is free, but like sorting brass by weight is time consuming.

 

[jwrowland77]

Sorting is time consuming, that's why I normally do it watching TV with my wife. Plus she feels like I'm spending time with her. Lol. I would suggest sorting brass by capacity. Weight doesn't make a hill of beans.

I weighed some Hornady .308 brass and some Win brass. Hornady weighed 165ish. Win weighed 155ish. Both had the same exact internal capacity.

I have a Forster outside neck turning tool with the K&M power adapter so I can chuck it in my drill. I've been thinking about getting the new Hornady neck turner.

 

[capreppy]

Sorting is time consuming, that's why I normally do it watching TV with my wife. Plus she feels like I'm spending time with her. Lol. I would suggest sorting brass by capacity. Weight doesn't make a hill of beans.

I weighed some Hornady .308 brass and some Win brass. Hornady weighed 165ish. Win weighed 155ish. Both had the same exact internal capacity.

I have a Forster outside neck turning tool with the K&M power adapter so I can chuck it in my drill. I've been thinking about getting the new Hornady neck turner.

What's the easiest way to check for capacity? H20? That does sound like it would be very time consuming.

There really are a lot of options for neck turning. I'd like one that is not necessarily idiot proof, but can be used consistently and doesn't beat up your hands.

 

[jwrowland77]

Yes H2O. Google primer plugs. There's a company that makes plugs specifically for doing this. Cost like $20 for a small/large set. It is very time consuming but worth it to me. I do this for my 600yd and 1000yd match ammo.

My hunting ammo I don't do any of this stuff.

 

[capreppy]

Yes H2O. Google primer plugs. There's a company that makes plugs specifically for doing this. Cost like $20 for a small/large set. It is very time consuming but worth it to me. I do this for my 600yd and 1000yd match ammo.

My hunting ammo I don't do any of this stuff.

I may do this so I can have 500 pieces of very consistent brass. This would be especially necessary for 600 yard shots. I'll check out the primer plugs.

 

[taliv]

jrowland, curious what powder you use and how you measure it.


i think there's a lot of voodoo. some people do things and others don't. i'm definitely not saying anyone is doing something wrong. i just think it's interesting that everyone has different experiences and attributes different actions to their results.

for my part, i only neck turn when my brass is too thick for the chamber (e.g. if i bought lapua), i pay a lot of attention to neck tension though and feel less is more. I anneal about every 3rd firing, put about .001 tension on it and only size the top half of the neck. I don't touch the primer pockets or even clean them, but i think seating primers properly is important. wolf or fed gm match have worked well. cci and winchester not so much for me. i weigh powder to +/- .01g. I don't sort brass or bullets

in the past 3 days, i shot 6 groups over the chrono with 2 different rifles and 2 different loads. i put the results in another discussion about cold vs warm bore shots and clean vs fouled bore shots, but here they are. the summaries are showing the SD and ES with and without the cold bore shot, which as you can see is usually quite a bit lower. all together, the 6 groups had SD of 6 and ES of 16. If you eliminate the cold bore, it drops to SD 3.5 and ES of 7.8. If you only use fouled, warm barrel, (highlighted in yellow) the SD drops to 2 and ES of 4 and 5 for the two groups.

i think if i sorted cases, i could probably get that lower, but for what i do, an SD in the mid to low single digits is fine and time and money to lower it would be wasted.


btw, the two yellow groups were 7/8" and 1 7/8" from 338 yards, which is .256 MOA and .56 MOA respectively. the two groups to the left of them were shot on steel. the two groups to the left of those were .51 and .92 MOA respectively. (again, different loads, different rifles)

 

[jwrowland77]

I use IMR 4064 and generally I'll use my Auto Charge and then trickle it up to my target weight.

I've been testing that new powder 4166 and I have to say that I'm really liking it.

 

[jwrowland77]

Also to point on what taliv said, you just kind of have to test and find what works for you and your rifle. I will say that Consistency = Accuracy. Whatever you do, do it the same way for all rounds.

 

[capreppy]

I didn't measure the groups, but will when I go to the range again (probably early next week). When the MagnetoSpeed is attached to the barrel, the groups open up a little.

With that being said, even with the ES of 15 to 20, I was still probably under 1/2 MOA. I'll take these out longer next week to see how well they do. I also worked up a load for the 75 Amax and I'll definitely be taking those to the range as well.

I found the primer plugs on the 21st Century Shooting website. I'll order those shortly, but can't do anything with them till I get all the brass I do have shot up and then annealed. I have 3k pieces of prepped and primed brass. I need to load them and shoot them.

EDIT: what I learn from the 223, I will carry forward to my 6.5CM and my 300WM. My 223 is my trainer and definitely the best way for me to learn about consistency for the other two cartridges.

 

[jwrowland77]

EDIT: what I learn from the 223, I will carry forward to my 6.5CM and my 300WM. My 223 is my trainer and definitely the best way for me to learn about consistency for the other two cartridges.

...and a lot cheaper to practice with. I have a tendency to take the .223 and practice with instead of my .308. Even though I reload, it's still cheaper to buy .223 bullets than .308 bullets. Lol

 

[capreppy]

...and a lot cheaper to practice with. I have a tendency to take the .223 and practice with instead of my .308. Even though I reload, it's still cheaper to buy .223 bullets than .308 bullets. Lol

I built my 223 specifically to practice the basics and keep shooting costs down. The 50gr Hornady Z-Max may not be a match bullet, but at $130/k, it is still plenty accurate and cheap. I still have 3k sitting on the shelves. It is (according to Hornady) a V-Max with a green tip. For 90% of my shooting, it is plenty accurate.

 

[murf]

jwrowland77,

how do you measure base-to-ogive?

murf

 

[jwrowland77]

I use my Hornady Bullet Comparator.

 

[murf]

Could you stick the up-side-down bullet in a sized case and measure with calipers?

 

[jwrowland77]

I have no idea.

 

[spitballer]

ES can be very low even when the bullets are spraying wildly, if one simply increases a charge to overcome fouling. Not sure I'd be so concerned with ES.

 

[ironworkerwill]

Varying charge, annealing, and trimming brass to the same length can all lower ES. Among other things.

 

[Rule3]

I would not dwell on a ES of 20 with a test of 50 rounds

JMHO but your 50 gr projectile in the new 1;7 twist is pretty light. I would think a heavier bullet would be better.

 

[capreppy]

I will run heavier bullets for longer distances. The 50gr Zmax is cheap to shoot.

I got some advice from another posting on another site that a 20 ES is pretty good and I shouldn't worry about it. The 77 FGMM can have ES as high as 40-50 and still obviously shoots well.

I am new to chrono'ing my rounds so dont have a good baseline to work with.

 

[jwrowland77]

The last time I checked my match load, and I check often, was 10 shots over my chronograph and it gave me an SD 5, with an ES 9.

With an ES of 20, you're probably looking at an SD of 10 which is good but if you can get an SD in single digits, I've found that it's much better for distance shooting (500+ yd).

 

[steve4102]

What are some things that I can do to help reduce my ES?

Lee Factory Crimp Die.

Tests demonstrate that even bullets with no cannelure will shoot more accurately if crimped in place with the Lee Factory Crimp Die. A firm crimp improves accuracy because pressure must build to a higher level before the bullet begins to move. This higher start pressure insures a more uniform pressure curve and less velocity variation. Even powder selection is less critical. Until now, handloaders seated the bullet to touch the rifling to achieve similar results. This is not always possible nor desirable.

http://leeprecision.com/reloading-dies/rifle-dies/factory-crimp-die

Don't knock it till you try it.

 

[jwrowland77]

Lee Factory Crimp Die.



Tests demonstrate that even bullets with no cannelure will shoot more accurately if crimped in place with the Lee Factory Crimp Die. A firm crimp improves accuracy because pressure must build to a higher level before the bullet begins to move. This higher start pressure insures a more uniform pressure curve and less velocity variation. Even powder selection is less critical. Until now, handloaders seated the bullet to touch the rifling to achieve similar results. This is not always possible nor desirable.



http://leeprecision.com/reloading-dies/rifle-dies/factory-crimp-die



Don't knock it till you try it.

I've been thinking about getting one just to see. Mainly just because I can and that's the fun of reloading. Lol

 

[spitballer]

Lee Factory Crimp Die...

Out of respect for a company I've grown to appreciate I hesitate to even comment on this product, but it has me shaking my head and I still have trouble with it. Isn't this the die that squeezes permanent grooves into the case neck to crimp the bullet? Doesn't it render the case useless for another reload? I could see the value of such a crimp on the battlefield to deny the enemy use of the brass, but for run-of-the-mill reloading?