Will Pistol Iron Sights go the way of rifle sights and AR carry handle?

kidneyboy said:

My grandkids, in their teens and twenties, think iron sights are for old men.

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Must have a pretty active family in the shooting sports then.
Most people in my extended family have no idea any of this is going on.
In other words, I haven't been exposed to the opinions that iron sights are old peoples tools yet.

My eyes haven't degraded yet to the point where using iron sights gives me any trouble. Maybe at some point when I can't see the target too well, but that time hasn't come. To be honest, red dot sights would be very useful on some heavy revolvers I shoot that I just can't stabilize to be accurate with.

I don't believe they will ever go away completely. Some of us carry IWB and depending on the size gun, an optic may add unwanted bulk or snagging potential. I suspect that desire for super compact and snag free-ish guns will keep them alive. Lots of people pocket carry also. Future holster designs may help mitigate this.

For folks carrying a larger gun with an appropriate holster made for it, optics work well.

However there will always be those who refuse to be battery dependent also.

I've had red dot sights on .22 LR pistols for well over a decade now. I got my first centerfire pistol with a red dot about 18 months ago, Canik TP9SFX. I just put a red dot on my XD-M 5.25. I'm thinking of sending in one of my 1911 pistols to have the slide milled for a red dot.

At some point in the next few years I'll send in my carry 1911 to have the slide milled.

Red dot sights are a huge game changer for most people. My buddy can't shoot a red dot sighted pistol worth a damn. I can see the difference it makes for me. Cuts my group sizes in half and cuts my times in competition.

Since 1990 no person has won the National USPSA using iron sights. Think about that for a minute.

Battery life on many models is in the 10's of thousands of hours. Acquiring the dot is a training issue.

I think optical sighting devices will ultimately replace iron sights, except for antiques and novelty or nostalgia. I suspect I will be dead and gone by the time that happens, but time and "progress" marches on no matter what.

Dave

I don't know if RDS will completely replace iron sights on pistols, but I am pretty convinced that RDS's will be the "normal" sighting device for pistols within 10 years. A few things make me think this:

• There's no question that, with a relatively brief acclimation period, a generally-competent pistol shooter will be more accurate and faster when doing any sort of "practical" shooting using a RDS versus irons. I've seen way, way, way too many shooters in USPSA stick a slide-riding optic on their production gun (not fancy race gun - just DA/SA or striker-fired things) and become entirely different, better shooters.
• There's no question that new shooters who learn to shoot using a RDS first get better, faster. They get more feedback from the RDS. They can start "calling their shots" very early on. They can see the dot in recoil far sooner in their development than people learning to track a front sight in recoil.
• They're far more forgiving of most eye difficulties than conventional iron sights.
• The ruggedness of a few models is now adequate for service-type use, and developments continue in this area.

Sometimes people who have put in their tens of thousands of hours of mastery time with iron sights spend 15 minutes "hunting" for the dot in the window and think that's something really hard to learn. I am very sure that it is far easier to learn a sufficiently good index to see the dot on every draw than it is to learn to line up 4 things (eye, rear sight, front sight, target) at different focal lengths and see tiny variation in light-bar width. Way easier.

I think a good analogy is the way that electronic clutches and other effectively-automatic transmissions have surpassed manuals for performance driving. As much as I loved rowing gears, I have to admit that the paddles on my current car change gears and match revs far faster than I ever could with a stick and clutch pedal. I might one day have another stick just for driving enjoyment. I'll continue shooting iron-sighted handguns for enjoyment. But they're no longer optimal.

What's worse than an optic, as far as snagging in a holster, is a weapons light attached to a bottom rail. Yet those seem to be a trend as well.

It's kind of hard to attach a quadrant sight to an AR with out a carry handle.

ATLDave said:

I don't know if RDS will completely replace iron sights on pistols, but I am pretty convinced that RDS's will be the "normal" sighting device for pistols within 10 years. A few things make me think this:

• There's no question that, with a relatively brief acclimation period, a generally-competent pistol shooter will be more accurate and faster when doing any sort of "practical" shooting using a RDS versus irons. I've seen way, way, way too many shooters in USPSA stick a slide-riding optic on their production gun (not fancy race gun - just DA/SA or striker-fired things) and become entirely different, better shooters.
• There's no question that new shooters who learn to shoot using a RDS first get better, faster. They get more feedback from the RDS. They can start "calling their shots" very early on. They can see the dot in recoil far sooner in their development than people learning to track a front sight in recoil.
• They're far more forgiving of most eye difficulties than conventional iron sights.
• The ruggedness of a few models is now adequate for service-type use, and developments continue in this area.

Sometimes people who have put in their tens of thousands of hours of mastery time with iron sights spend 15 minutes "hunting" for the dot in the window and think that's something really hard to learn. I am very sure that it is far easier to learn a sufficiently good index to see the dot on every draw than it is to learn to line up 4 things (eye, rear sight, front sight, target) at different focal lengths and see tiny variation in light-bar width. Way easier.

I think a good analogy is the way that electronic clutches and other effectively-automatic transmissions have surpassed manuals for performance driving. As much as I loved rowing gears, I have to admit that the paddles on my current car change gears and match revs far faster than I ever could with a stick and clutch pedal. I might one day have another stick just for driving enjoyment. I'll continue shooting iron-sighted handguns for enjoyment. But they're no longer optimal.

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Excellent post!!

This is thread is like a time machine. Good stuff.

Even though I am very definitely a traditionalist, I see the value in modern optics for handguns - even for EDC defensive guns. As more and more handguns come with optics as standard, I think they will largely replace irons within the next few decades.

Having said that, I can't see them making real inroads with the admirers of classic 1911s and blue steel revolvers, and that is a significant groups of shooters - so I don't foresee a time when optics replace irons on handguns nearly as universally as they have on rifles.

I dont know.......

this is certainly a truth these days, and makes a very valid point.




I can see things like iron sights not being too far behind.

AK103K said:

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Yep, I made the stick-shift analogy above. Just like automatic transmissions, for a long time pistol optics involved some big tradeoffs. But once the technology really matured and morphed (from tubes to windows, from things too fragile to stand up to reciprocation to the rugged-ized things one can get now, etc.), the reasons to stay traditionalist got less and less rational... and more about pure preference/enjoyment.

I know how to drive stick (and enjoy doing so). I like to think I can shoot iron-sight pistols. But my current car has paddles on the wheel, and I imagine most of my future handgun purchases will end up with dots on them. I'm about to start teaching my daughter to shoot, and I'm not even going to bother teaching her irons until she is already somewhat proficient with a dot.

Aim1 said:

Will Pistol Iron Sights go the way of rifle sights and AR carry handle?

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IMHO, short answer not completely.
The reason I say this is that it depends on the situation in which the gun is being used. For example, my .44 Mag Marlin has iron sights. It's a lever and by no means a long distance target rifle. However, hunting in the Everglades you can't see very far anyway. All a scope is going to do is pull all that sawgrass right in your face. By the time a hog is close enough for me to start dreaming about bbq ribs and bacon, if I can't hit him with open irons, time for me to take up knitting.

Likewise my self defense carry gun. I got the little Bersa at a discount because the inner adjustable part of the rear sight was missing. It's a defensive gun. I can't use lethal force unless life and limb are endangered and that's likely not going to happen in the real world from 50 yards away. I took the Bersa to the range the first time and put two 7 round magazines of bullets in the target at 20 feet, never having fired that gun before.

First two magazines:


To quote Bones McCoy, "He's dead, JIm."

Bad rear sight:

The major advantage irons sights have over optics on any platform is cost. A good rugged reliable optic is still at a minimum over $100 dollars, and usually much closer to $300 or more. Yes there are iron sights that cost over $100, but there are literally hundreds of other options that cost less than that and are perfectly serviceable. Still probably 95% of all handguns ship with irons, and those that come with optics are FAR more expensive. The handgun market more than other firearms areas is driven by cost to a much larger degree.

I believe technology will reduce the sight size and have a dot presentation means to where it will be nearly as unobtrusive as contemporary iron sights. I just got into a bullseye league with a bunch of old guys, I live in a retirement community, and a lot of them use red dot sights because their eyesight has diminished like mine has. I've been looking into different sights and will order one soon.

As fast as things have been changing, I could easily see a dime, or ghost ring sized RDS that fits a standard rear dovetail in just a few years, at most a decade. Look how small they are already, and continue to go down in size.

All you need to see, is the dot.

AK103K said:

All you need to see, is the dot.

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That's kind of the idea with the Meprolight FT bullseye sight. It will be interesting to see where development on that style goes to see if it can be made an effective competitor to RDS development.

Aim1 said:

Will Pistol Iron Sights go the way of rifle sights and AR carry handle?

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No. But may have help.

I simply don't see the necessity for Red-Dot sights, if often repeated average self-defense shooting distances are reasonably correct.

Hangingrock said:

I simply don't see the necessity for Red-Dot sights, if often repeated average self-defense shooting distances are reasonably correct.

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At those distances, theres really no need for sights at all. Maybe we should go the other way then.

But, thats not really planning for reality. And the reality is, you have no idea as to what you might get, so you need to be as prepared as possible for as much as you can. SD really has no distance limitations.

I think youre going to find, once someone gets used to a red dot, its going to increase the abilities of just about anyone, but especially that of the "limited to average" shooters.

AK103K said:

At those distances, theres really no need for sights at all. Maybe we should go the other way then.

But, thats not really planning for reality. And the reality is, you have no idea as to what you might get, so you need to be as prepared as possible for as much as you can. SD really has no distance limitations.

I think youre going to find, once someone gets used to a red dot, its going to increase the abilities of just about anyone, but especially that of the "limited to average" shooters.

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In my younger days I dealt with reality, USMC Viet-Nam utilizing a issued Ithaca 1911A1. Lessons learned, what generations before had learned a Rifle is primary and a Handgun is secondary. I've jokingly said and occasionally wrote I've fired enough 45ACP at 25&50Yds to fill multiple 55Gal Drums.

Tom Givens has written in is earlier book and the current book Concealed Carry Class The ABCs Of Self-Defense Tools And Tactics using examples of his students involved in shootings along with FBI and DEA in regards to number of shoots fired and distance, you may want to research that aspect.

The likelihood of I being involved in a shooting, is under anything is possible, but likely not, as I avoid stupid people, places and things like a religion.

As for sighted fire I employ on my EDC TruGlo Tritium Pro on my EDC and I don't do the Carry-Rotation, strictly one primary and one backup on occasion!

In closing !

Hangingrock said:

In my younger days I dealt with reality, USMC Viet-Nam utilizing a issued Ithaca 1911A1. Lessons learned, what generations before had learned a Rifle is primary and a Handgun is secondary. I've jokingly said and occasionally wrote I've fired enough 45ACP at 25&50Yds to fill multiple 55Gal Drums.

Tom Givens has written in is earlier book and the current book Concealed Carry Class The ABCs Of Self-Defense Tools And Tactics using examples of his students involved in shootings along with FBI and DEA in regards to number of shoots fired and distance, you may want to research that aspect.

The likelihood of I being involved in a shooting, is under anything is possible, but likely not, as I avoid stupid people, places and things like a religion.

As for sighted fire I employ on my EDC TruGlo Tritium Pro on my EDC and I don't do the Carry-Rotation, strictly one primary and one backup on occasion!

In closing !

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I dont do the rotation thing either and have had good, three dot night sights on any handgun Ive carried (that would accept them), for a long time now. A soon as they get their red dots down a bit smaller, and the price down with them, Ill probably go that route too. But for now, for me anyway, they just arent cost-effective, especially for multiple guns. And it would be a multiple gun thing, for me anyway.

Ive had red dots on a number of my rifles for about 20 years now, and there is no comparison when shooting them against any kind of iron sights, even those with tritium. I know exactly what they are like and how much easier they are to shoot with, especially quickly and reactively.

Its a dot that appears on your target, where youre looking at, as the weapon is presented. The round goes to the dot, and theres no other alignment or thought necessary.


Im always kind of amazed at how much weight people put on the statistics, and base things simply on that, and call that gospel for what they will likely encounter, should something go south.

I often think that a lot of that is because it fits with their shooting skill sets, and thats usually based on a static, close range, "slow fire" standpoint, not from anything realistic. Seriously now, how many do you routinely see practicing from how they carry their gun, anytime youre at a range? And especially the smaller, pocket type guns? Many if not most commercial and sportsmen type ranges wont even allow it.

Maybe Im off here, but, I always looked at this as an ongoing, lifetime thing, that needed constant tuning and learning as time goes on, and across as much as I could see being realistically practical. Not just what Im supposed to encounter at close range.

I may never have to take a 50 or 100 yard shot (but I have done it enough in practice to know what to expect), and I hope I never have to find out if I have to take any shot at all, whatever the distance or number of rounds, but I still work hard at being the best I can, with what I carry, and I try my best, to always carry what I shoot best with. The last thing I want, is for the first time for anything to happen, its my "first time" experiencing and doing it. Ive already done it, or something similar to it, in practice. The broader in your training/practice the better off youre going to be.

And of course, theres always Murphy waiting in the wings, to shoot all those statistics all to hell.


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When you say "iron sights" I think you mean non-optical, right?

Because we have fiber optic sights, night sights, sights like the sig p365 sas, etc. Those aren't red dots or optical sights, but they are pretty much equivalent to "iron sights".

I just pulled out my Colt New Agent today. It has a gutter sight...