Warning from Starline about their 9mm(+P) brass
- Thread starter jski
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AJC1
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I think that it is awesome of them to provide you safety feedback based on their experience and the experience of other users should you choose to do it anyway that would just be stupid.
tightgroup tiger
Member
I find it hard to understand.
I wonder if someone did something really stupid and blamed Starline for it.
The brass that comes out of my Shield looks a lot better than some I pick up off the floor from other guns shot at the range.
I wonder if someone did something really stupid and blamed Starline for it.
The brass that comes out of my Shield looks a lot better than some I pick up off the floor from other guns shot at the range.
My guess is they don't want you to use their brass for max or +p loads if you're loading for your S&W Shield. Somebody did and it didn't work out to well. Add lawyers. Not that hard to figure out.
Oh, and these will stick in your 929. That isn't new. Now you have been warned ahead of time by the manufacturer.
That warning has been out for a couple years now. The issue is the un-supported chambers of the shields bbl.'s. Everyone complained about the early glock bbl.'s not being supported. Same thing
A picture of hot loads fired in a shield. The top piece of brass shows the round firing pin hit (round not flat like glock). The 2nd & 3rd pieces of brass (top counting down) show the case bulge from the un-supported chamber of the shield. The bottom 2 pieces of brass had the same bulge and a sized them out. You can clearly see the excessive ring left on the brass and the brass flow it took to get those bulges out.
Different company's have different views on case bulge. Starline (who makes/tests brass) feels it's not a good thing to have excessive case bulge in the brass nor do they recommend reusing cases with bulges in them.
On the other had lee makes a living out of sells dies to remove those same bulges in the case.
A picture of hot loads fired in a shield. The top piece of brass shows the round firing pin hit (round not flat like glock). The 2nd & 3rd pieces of brass (top counting down) show the case bulge from the un-supported chamber of the shield. The bottom 2 pieces of brass had the same bulge and a sized them out. You can clearly see the excessive ring left on the brass and the brass flow it took to get those bulges out.
Different company's have different views on case bulge. Starline (who makes/tests brass) feels it's not a good thing to have excessive case bulge in the brass nor do they recommend reusing cases with bulges in them.
On the other had lee makes a living out of sells dies to remove those same bulges in the case.
edwardware
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Wow! That's a mild primer, so that bulge is definitely a chamber issue.
How does the Lee die work? It sizes from the rim up instead?
rfwobbly
Member
But notice that Lee makes no claims for the suitability of that brass, after its shape has been corrected.
Looks somewhat like one vendor is dedicated to the hobby of reloading and the practitioner's safety, while the other is dedicated to their own bottom line.
mcb
Member
Starline is good brass but in my experience I have often found it softer than many other brass. I have bought 40 S&W, 45 ACP and 38 Short Colt from them and its been great brass but always seemed soft. For competition I don't buy it any more. For 40S&W and 45 ACP most of my brass is range pickup though about 50% of my 40S&W is Winchester from a big once-fire buy from the PA state police. For 38 Short Colt I have found Reminton's brass is working better for me. The only catch is they don't sell it as a component only in loaded ammo so I let my nephews shoot those bunny farts up and reload it form competition.
Is there something unique about their brass?
See post #9. mcb has a lot of experience.
I use Starline brass for 38sp and 357. An earlier Blackhawk I owned had 1 cylinder chamber that was a little tight and required a good wack to get Starline brass out. Soft brass, tight chamber.
It's funny, I think their 10mm brass is the absolute gold standard in that caliber - I'd rather have it than any other brand. But in 9mm, I get fewer major loadings out of it than I do out of Win (which I consider the gold standard in 9mm) or WCC or several other military headstamps. It's lighter in weight than those... I don't know if it's soft, or if they just have a less robust web than some other brands. Others are worse, to be sure, and I've never had any problem or lifespan issues in non-major 9mm with Starline.
mcb
Member
Thanks kidneyboy, I would add the caveat that I think it's softer but I have no hard data (hardness tests etc) to support that assertion other than my experience using it in 45 ACP, 40S&W and 38 Short Colt all in revolvers. My semi-auto's get range brass for the most part.
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mcb
Member
I never have had a life time issue either. Well 45 ACP's low pressure never kills brass, I have brass from the 1940's in the bucket of range brass. I ran one batch of 1000 pcs of Starline 40S&W through my 610 8-10 times before I dumped it into my general range brass bucket and had no issues. I have not cycled through my 38 Short Colt enough yet to split any cases. But compared to Winchester and Remington I have always found my moonclips chew up the Starline brass more during abuse. A moonclip of Starline brass that I kick/step-on during a running reload always seem more damaged than a moonclip of Win or Rem. When things go wrong on the old 650XL and it decides to eat a piece of brass the Starline seems to crunch easier. Again no hard data it just "feels" softer in those three caliber in my use. YMMV
Crunch...
GBExpat
Member
Yeah, but what are the chances of that ever happening.
mcb
Member
You're right and yeah I should have made that connection... Probably why it is favored buy competitive shooters due to that fatigue endurance but also maybe the reason that warning on 9mm +P as it's not quite got the yield strength of some other harder brass.
fxvr5
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Starline's 9mm Luger brass has been shown to be less robust near the head than other brands and will swell more than other brands. It might not be an issue with hardness as much as with thickness at this point. Hard to say without specific measurement and testing.
https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2018/1/9/how-to-use-9-major-in-a-short-barrel/
Starline's 9X23 Comp brass is not as strong as the original Winchester 9X23 brass, but the Winchester cases are unique in the ability to withstand high pressure in an unsupported chamber.
On the other hand, some of their other pistol brass, specifically 38 Super +P and 38 Super Comp are known for being the strongest brass around in that caliber.
https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/super-powders-for-the-38-super/99160
https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2018/1/9/how-to-use-9-major-in-a-short-barrel/
Starline's 9X23 Comp brass is not as strong as the original Winchester 9X23 brass, but the Winchester cases are unique in the ability to withstand high pressure in an unsupported chamber.
On the other hand, some of their other pistol brass, specifically 38 Super +P and 38 Super Comp are known for being the strongest brass around in that caliber.
https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/super-powders-for-the-38-super/99160
I had no idea that Lee made a die that would do the same thing as a roll sizer. Or produce the same end result anyway.
Super brass looking like that isn't anything out of the ordinary. I knew a few guys that had to go out and buy a roll sizer to get the bulge out because they guy that built their super told them it was "normal." Everyone I knew that shot competitively used starline brass. It bends real good.
Super brass looking like that isn't anything out of the ordinary. I knew a few guys that had to go out and buy a roll sizer to get the bulge out because they guy that built their super told them it was "normal." Everyone I knew that shot competitively used starline brass. It bends real good.
S&W.
fxvr5
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One could just as easily argue that the problem lies with Starline.
https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/cartridge-review-9x23-winchester/99601
mcb
Member
I going to go with both to some degree.
GW Staar
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IMO the blame is with the guys who design pistols with unsupported chambers. I'm reminded of the saying, "those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it." "Glock Perfection" wasn't.....they finally redesigned their chambers and the problem went away for the most part with .40 S&W. Those who were around during that time know that Glock at first said the problem was reloads.....their guns weren't made for "reloads." They took some heat and changed the chamber design.
That said, there was more fault all right, Remington brass in those days was a bit light and they were damaged easily.....but equally, people reloading too hot were also to blame. I haven't heard any complaints about Starline brass being too light. Remington corrected theirs....so is Starline on the light side? Wouldn't know, never bought any.....all my police pickup is Winchester.
I use the Redding GRx dies that smooth out .40 S&W cases, and they have lasted just fine. HOWEVER brass that was damaged by shooting really hot reloads in those Glocks, was more pronounced than the slight barely noticeable bulge that made the cases hard to chamber in reloads of normal factory loads. The damaged "Glocked" brass as such became known from those hot reloads, was never intended by Redding or Lee for that matter to be "fixed" and reused.
I got to pick up brass from police training meets (they had Glocks), back when they were using .40's around my neck of the woods.......so I have a good deal of .40 S&W brass, that needed the GRx dies. Regular dies just couldn't size them down low enough. My "GRxed" brass is still being used my me...long since our local police went back to 9mm, because female officers had difficulty qualifying with the .40s and complained. Me? I prefer .40's or .45's. I don't even own a 9mm.
That said, there was more fault all right, Remington brass in those days was a bit light and they were damaged easily.....but equally, people reloading too hot were also to blame. I haven't heard any complaints about Starline brass being too light. Remington corrected theirs....so is Starline on the light side? Wouldn't know, never bought any.....all my police pickup is Winchester.
I use the Redding GRx dies that smooth out .40 S&W cases, and they have lasted just fine. HOWEVER brass that was damaged by shooting really hot reloads in those Glocks, was more pronounced than the slight barely noticeable bulge that made the cases hard to chamber in reloads of normal factory loads. The damaged "Glocked" brass as such became known from those hot reloads, was never intended by Redding or Lee for that matter to be "fixed" and reused.
I got to pick up brass from police training meets (they had Glocks), back when they were using .40's around my neck of the woods.......so I have a good deal of .40 S&W brass, that needed the GRx dies. Regular dies just couldn't size them down low enough. My "GRxed" brass is still being used my me...long since our local police went back to 9mm, because female officers had difficulty qualifying with the .40s and complained. Me? I prefer .40's or .45's. I don't even own a 9mm.
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I say neither. S&W knowingly makes a 9mm barrel with an unsupported chamber. Starline knows their 9mm brass probably wont work with max or +p loads in an unsupported chamber. Make your choices.
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