45 (Long) Colt in an 1866 Yellowboy replica - are 100 meter possible?

call1911 said:

trusting the www an equivalent powder would be N110. I don't think if I want to go there with an 1866 lever action without official load data.
I'll look into those forums you mentioned!

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I think n110 is supposed to be like h110 a different animal from 2400.

Checking Lyman 50 for 45 Colt (Rifle Data)
16" 94 Win. and 20" Universal receiver for Vels
For 185 JHP (Sierra) they show
W231 (HP38 is the same powder) Start 7.6 1021fps MAX 8.5 1111fps
N320 Start 8.3 1102fps MAX 9.3 1289fps

For a lead 255gr they show
W231 Start 6.5 930fps MAX 7.2 996 fps
N320 Start 5.8 790fps MAX 6.7 941fps

(only real diff between rifle and pistol data is vel due to longer rifle barrel)

Scratching my head a bit about why the MAX with N320 is higher with the 185 as N320 is faster burning than W231 but thats what it shows.
Hodgdon shows with a lead 250
Winchester 231 .452" 1.600" 5.8 785 9,100 CUP 7.1 916 13,900 CUP
(Pistol data 7.25" barrel)
Slowest powders Hodgdon shows are Autocomp/CFE-Pistol, Lyman shows HS6
N350, 3N37 are a little slower that Autocomp, N340 a little faster (from the burn rate chart I am looking charts vary and of course are "closed bomb" tests)

For VV powders N330 is close to Unique on the burn chart, N105 probably closer to 2400 than N110


VVs burn rate chart


Forget when I got the VV .pdf but it is a couple years old.

On a target that size with a good load it should be doable, if the shooter does his part.
With a shorter zero and irons hold over will be fun

Dude, that lower chart is the one I use most... and the reason I recommended N340, N350, and 3N37, although VV's information on their website is a little vague and disjointed. My Speer #14 manual has a wee bit of data with VV powders, but some of it is 'Cowboy' loads using the faster N320. I've even hunted for data in forum threads, but they usually want Cowboy pistol data, or data for N110, which I don't think would be appropriate for what the OP needs. I think, in lieu of 3N37, N340 should work well enough, and maybe N350.

Bullet trajectory & sighting error seems to be the problem, more then the load.

Gun is accurate at 25 & 50 yards.

When I was shooting IHMSA handgun silhouette, the range I belonged to had sighter targets permanently installed at the appropriate ranges. While I shot a 357 Magnum revolver in competition, we would frequently shoot other handguns at the sighter targets for fun.

I routinely shot my S&W Model 25-5 chambered in 45 Colt at the 100m pig and would hit it 70-80 percent of the time with standard 45 Colt ammunition using 250 to 255 grain cast bullets.

The key was knowing how many clicks from bottom to set the sights for a center of target hit.

The revolver had enough sight adjustment for a center of target setting on the 150m turkeys but they are a pain to hit reliably due to their small size. Even with my unlimited gun, I had trouble hitting the turkeys reliably.

Things fell apart on the 200m rams. The sights ran out of adjustment and I had to aim about 20 feet over the top of the target for a hit. The bullet took so long to get out to 200m, you could almost eat lunch before it hit.

So, I'd suspect a 45 Colt rifle should do fine at 100m.

Tang sight and bang. If it shoots small at 25-50 yards, it won’t have enough variance in velocity to miss a 20” target at 100m. You’re not going unstable - short stubby bullets starting at sub-sonic velocity will stay stable a long, long, long ways.

cfullgraf said:

When I was shooting IHMSA handgun silhouette, the range I belonged to had sighter targets permanently installed at the appropriate ranges. While I shot a 357 Magnum revolver in competition, we would frequently shoot other handguns at the sighter targets for fun.

I routinely shot my S&W Model 25-5 chambered in 45 Colt at the 100m pig and would hit it 70-80 percent of the time with standard 45 Colt ammunition using 250 to 255 grain cast bullets.

The key was knowing how many clicks from bottom to set the sights for a center of target hit.

The revolver had enough sight adjustment for a center of target setting on the 150m turkeys but they are a pain to hit reliably due to their small size. Even with my unlimited gun, I had trouble hitting the turkeys reliably.

Things fell apart on the 200m rams. The sights ran out of adjustment and I had to aim about 20 feet over the top of the target for a hit. The bullet took so long to get out to 200m, you could almost eat lunch before it hit.

So, I'd suspect a 45 Colt rifle should do fine at 100m.

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Waiting for a rifle caliber ram to fall when shot with a pistol cartridge seems a lifetime. When they ring rock and don't fall you may just want to cry a little

AJC1 said:

Waiting for a rifle caliber ram to fall when shot with a pistol cartridge seems a lifetime. When they ring rock and don't fall you may just want to cry a little

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I shot the 45 Colt mostly at the sighter targets. It would hit the ram with a resounding ring while the fast movers would hit with a splat. The target was mounted to a railroad freight car truck spring.

The one time I shot the 45 Colt in a match, if I hit the ram, it toppled.

Since you list H-38(W231) in your OP why not give it a try? I used pounds and pounds of it in the 45 Colt until I switched to HS-6. W231 is very accurate for me.

I used my Dan Wesson M45 in .45LC in handgun silhouette competition for years, usually scoring in the mid-30s. Out of ten rams at 200 meters I’d usually hit eight or nine with iron sights. All fell, never lost one. I shot 250s and 300s at 1000-1100 fps. My M-25 wasn’t quite as accurate but still shot in the 30s.


.

1) buckhorns are hard
2) at 100 meters the holdover is near or above the top edge of the target

Powder isn't the problem. Somewhere in 9-9.5grains of N340 should be a treat. I shoot a 100 yard competition with black powder 45 Colt in a Marlin 1894 and can often manage 6" 10 shot groups with the odd flier. So, accuracy and repeatability with smokeless should be better. I use a Williams aperture sight.

A tang sight or a Williams-type aperture type sight and a good spotter will sort you out. It needs a good deal of elevation at 100 meters.

But, if it's a bison shoot, you really need at least a 45-70

Lycka till!

When the 45 Colt in revolvers was issued to soldiers in the 1870's they intended them to be used at ranges beyond 100 yards. I see no reason why it wouldn't be easier in a rifle.

Can you stop your target carrier at ranges between 50 and 100 meters?

I would try Trail Boss, work my way up to the max side of things.

I can shoot 8" plate @ 80yds with a 32-20 with the powder at a low charge weight I'd say about 60% hits. Better with more practice.

It's wimpy but it's worth trying. But that a reason is recommended it for your, not as strong toggle link (iirc) action.

YES it can be done, I shoot a Uberti 1873 carbine, 19" in .45LC. I use a 250gn LRNFP bullet with 7.6gn of TrailBoss. We also shoot a steel buffalo at 100yds (not meters) but not much difference. My 1873 comes with a rear ladder sight. I slide my site to the 100 yd mark which does elevate your your aim point. But I can consistently hit the target. So you just need to understand your sight, start on a bench until you know your sight picture if using a buckhorn sight. You can also count to two Mississippi before you hear it hit.

call1911 said:

I already tried N340 (see initial posting: Speer HP 185gn, Vihtavuori N340, 11,00 - 11,80gn)
But as the bullet was from my 1911 / 45acp loads it has no crimp groove and my attempts to use the 45acp taper crimp failed.
The bullets hit everything but the target and I postponed further tries with this kind of bullet without the right crimping die.

I'll do some tests with 3N37 (hopefully) next week and see how it goes from there.

N105 (which I don't have) and N110 (which I use for 357magnum knock-down loads) is not meant for a 1866 replica as far as I see it.

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You are not going to fix a bullet issue by changing powder. Cast some proper bullets or buy the right ones.

call1911 said:

I already tried N340 (see initial posting: Speer HP 185gn, Vihtavuori N340, 11,00 - 11,80gn)
But as the bullet was from my 1911 / 45acp loads it has no crimp groove and my attempts to use the 45acp taper crimp failed.
The bullets hit everything but the target and I postponed further tries with this kind of bullet without the right crimping die.

I'll do some tests with 3N37 (hopefully) next week and see how it goes from there.

N105 (which I don't have) and N110 (which I use for 357magnum knock-down loads) is not meant for a 1866 replica as far as I see it.

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There is part of your problem, I believe. .45ACP bullets are typically .451", a good bullet for .45 Colt starts at .452"... and I have seen the need for larger bullets in some .45 Colt firearms.

I would probably stick with the ~250'ish grain bullets, that seems to be the happy medium in the .45 Colt for shooting at distance.