Federal Jurisdiction in Portland.

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USAFNoDAk

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There has been discussions regarding the jurisdiction of federal law enforcement in Portland, specifically regarding protestors who commit a criminal act on federal property but then run to local or state property where they believe they are safe from the federal law enforcement agents. Federal law enforcement has been arresting and detaining some of those protestors after the protestors have left the federal property where they've committed their criminal acts.

Does the Constitution allow for the feds to make those arrests off of federal property if the criminal committed his or her crime on federal property?

We could relate this to whether the BATFE has the jurisdiction to arrest someone who is suspected of firearm related crimes but who doesn't happen to be on federal property when arrested. Any legal folks have any insights into this issue?
 
There has been discussions regarding the jurisdiction of federal law enforcement in Portland,
Discussions by who?


specifically regarding protestors who commit a criminal act on federal property but then run to local or state property where they believe they are safe from the federal law enforcement agents.
They are wholly and completely ignorant in so many ways.


Federal law enforcement has been arresting and detaining some of those protestors after the protestors have left the federal property where they've committed their criminal acts.
As they should.

Does the Constitution allow for the feds to make those arrests off of federal property if the criminal committed his or her crime on federal property?
If it didn't, 99.9% of Federal LE arrests would be meaningless.

We could relate this to whether the BATFE has the jurisdiction to arrest someone who is suspected of firearm related crimes but who doesn't happen to be on federal property when arrested.
We could? Mo, we could not. Federal authority means federal authority.

Any legal folks have any insights into this issue?
Doesn't take a legal eagle.....I knew this at age twelve. Efram Zimbalist Jr wasn't on Sunday night TV for nothing!

Seriously, do you think the FBI or any other federal LE agency waits until the suspect is standing on federal property to make an arrest?:scrutiny:

Good grief.
 
While we can discuss the legal issues, we are not going into the political implications of these actions.
 
The arrest authority of federal agencies varies depending on which agency the agent is serving with.

The broadest federal arrest authority is held by Deputy United States Marshals. The reason for this is that in addition to their federal authorities, they also may exercise the authority of the Sheriff of the County in which they are serving. It is a common practice to deputize LEO's as Deputy U.S. Marshals for this reason. I ran a multi-jurisdictional task force that had state and federal LEOs assigned. A number of our state LEOs were so deputized in order to more effectively handle cases that crossed state lines.

In the Portland example, there were a number of crimes committed against the Federal Courthouse, and against persons on the federal property. Violations of Oregon law occurring on the federal property can be prosecuted as federal crimes under the Assimilative Crimes Act, or as state crimes. A federal agent acting under Marshal's authority can take either avenue of prosecution. It would probably be a waste of time to take those cases into Oregon state courts, but they can also be prosecuted in Federal Court.

Most federal agents are restricted in their ability to make warrantless arrests. The Marshals are unique because their ability to use their Sheriff's authority makes a lot of warrantless arrests possible.

Once the warrantless arrest authority is acquired, it extends off the federal property and to any place under the jurisdiction of the U.S.
 
...Does the Constitution allow for the feds to make those arrests off of federal property if the criminal committed his or her crime on federal property?....

Absolutely. Federal authorities in general have the power to arrest anyone suspected of of a federal crime wherever in the United States that person is found.

The scope and extent a a federal agent's powers of arrest are matters subject to applicable federal law, as is the necessity for a warrant. But as long as the federal agent was acting within his federal authority and he either has a warrant or the circumstances don't require one, the fact that the suspect is not on federal property at the time of arrest is immaterial.

....We could relate this to whether the BATFE has the jurisdiction to arrest someone who is suspected of firearm related crimes but who doesn't happen to be on federal property when arrested....

If it's a federal firearms crime, the suspect does not have to be on federal property to be subject to arrest by ATF or other appropriate federal law enforcement agency.

See U.S. Constitution, Article VI, Clause 2:
This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.

The Oregon Supreme Court explicitly recognized the correct application of the Supremacy Clause. In Willis v. Winters, 253 P.3d 1058 (Or., 2011), ruling that Michael Winters, as Sheriff of Jackson County, was required under Oregon law to issue a concealed handgun license to Cynthia Willis even though she was a medical marijuana user. (at pp. 1065 - 1066, emphasis added):
...Neither is the statute [the Oregon CHL law] an obstacle to Congress's purposes in the sense that it interferes with the ability of the federal government to enforce the policy that the Gun Control Act expresses. A marijuana user's possession of a CHL may exempt him or her from prosecution or arrest under ORS 166.250(1)(a) and (b), but it does not in any way preclude full enforcement of the federal law by federal law enforcement officials...
 
So if someone just standing on the sidewalk with a sign can be arrested and detained isn’t that a blatant violation of the 1st amendment right to freely assemble. It’s awfully slippery slope to which we allow our constitutional rights to be whittled away. No matter if we agree with the message or not. Sooner or later after they come for the first amendment how long until they come for the other 13.
 
So if someone just standing on the sidewalk with a sign can be arrested and detained isn’t that a blatant violation of the 1st amendment right to freely assemble. It’s awfully slippery slope to which we allow our constitutional rights to be whittled away. No matter if we agree with the message or not. Sooner or later after they come for the first amendment how long until they come for the other 13.

Where did you get the idea that a person could be arrested under such conditions?

We're discussing the current situation in Portland. There must be a violation of Oregon law, or federal law, before an arrest can be made.
 
Where did you get the idea that a person could be arrested under such conditions?

We're discussing the current situation in Portland. There must be a violation of Oregon law, or federal law, before an arrest can be made.

Well, in the case of one of the alleged protesters that was taken, they were arrested and then released without charges or explanation.

“They drove him to the federal courthouse and placed him in a holding cell, ...

“Almost as suddenly as they had grabbed him off the street, the men let him go. The federal officers who snatched him off the street as he was walking home from a peaceful protest did not tell him why he had been detained or provide him any record of an arrest...”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/17/portland-protests-federal-arrests/
 
Well, in the case of one of the alleged protesters that was taken, they were arrested and then released without charges or explanation.

“They drove him to the federal courthouse and placed him in a holding cell, ...

“Almost as suddenly as they had grabbed him off the street, the men let him go. The federal officers who snatched him off the street as he was walking home from a peaceful protest did not tell him why he had been detained or provide him any record of an arrest...”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/17/portland-protests-federal-arrests/

OK, that's groovy, but it doesn't change anything in this discussion. There's nothing in the article that establishes the lack of a basis for the arrest. The author is not privy to the information held by the arresting officer. There is no requirement in the law (and I'm speaking as to federal law and California state law) that requires an arresting officer to discuss the basis for an arrested with media reporters at the scene, and it's generally a bad practice to do so.

But for the arrest to be lawful, there has to be a violation of the law.

There is no requirement for folks observing the arrest to agree.
 
OK, that's groovy, but it doesn't change anything in this discussion. There's nothing in the article that establishes the lack of a basis for the arrest. The author is not privy to the information held by the arresting officer. There is no requirement in the law (and I'm speaking as to federal law and California state law) that requires an arresting officer to discuss the basis for an arrested with media reporters at the scene, and it's generally a bad practice to do so.

But for the arrest to be lawful, there has to be a violation of the law.

There is no requirement for folks observing the arrest to agree.

The article has quotes from people involved in the arrest, not just observers. It’s worth reading.

The main thing that raises questions about the basis of the arrest is releasing the person they arrested without any explanation or paperwork.

You say “there must be a violation” but a warrantless arrest typically requires probable cause to believe there is a violation, not an actual violation. It’s a much lower standard. That said, the arresting officers must be able to articulate the cause for the arrest. If they arrest someone and then release them without any indication of what crime was suspected, a reasonable presumption in our, “innocent until proven guilty,” society is that the officers lacked probable cause.
 
The fourth amendment protects citizens from
Illegal searches or seizures.

One of the clauses in the fifth amendment gives protection against punishment with out due process

The sixth amendment gives us the right to a trial with a jury of our peers.

so yes the arresting officers do have to answer to us the citizens and tell us why we are being arrested.
 
The article has quotes from people involved in the arrest, not just observers. It’s worth reading.

The main thing that raises questions about the basis of the arrest is releasing the person they arrested without any explanation or paperwork.


You seem to be the only one saying he was arrested.

ETA: ok, Blnt4rcetrauma said it too. But why?. The article doesn't say he was arrested . Only detained.
 
The fourth amendment protects citizens from
Illegal searches or seizures.

One of the clauses in the fifth amendment gives protection against punishment with out due process

The sixth amendment gives us the right to a trial with a jury of our peers.

so yes the arresting officers do have to answer to us the citizens and tell us why we are being arrested.


The article never says he was arrested... the person didn't say he was arrested either.
 
First, can someone outline the difference between long detentions (restrained, transported to a building for hours and hours) and arrests? I've never seen a non-arrest police detention in the US that lasted past the scene. Transport always first means arrest. Can they just "detain" you for... ever?


Then: the directly-related issue that has been raised (google it, many, many articles detailing this) is that it seems no one, at the time or afterwards, is able to challenge or even discern the basis for arrest, or even if the arresting officer indeed has jurisdiction, authority, or is a law enforcement officer.

The Federal officers/agents involved in these are not identified even by agency much less individually, as well as not revealing to the arrestee or anyone else who they are or what the charge is, on paper or verbally. So there's no clear way to follow up on anything much less be sure you are being arrested on legal authority at the time.

We're used to seeing a police car, a guy with a name tag, patch for agency, in big cities other marks for which division/precinct. Paperwork is done. But if none of that, then are we allowed (legally: swear I am on topic) to challenge the arrest (on any part of it), at any time?

If so, how?
 
The fourth amendment protects citizens from
Illegal searches or seizures.

One of the clauses in the fifth amendment gives protection against punishment with out due process

The sixth amendment gives us the right to a trial with a jury of our peers.

so yes the arresting officers do have to answer to us the citizens and tell us why we are being arrested.

Nope, Nothing in the Fourth, Fifth, or Sixth Amendments require the disclosure of arrest information to third parties at the scene of the arrest. If you believe that such a requirement does exist, please cite any case law so holding.

You've misquoted the Fourth Amendment. It protects against unreasonable searches and seizures. "Unreasonable" is not legally equivalent to "illegal." The Fourth Amendment is not violated when a person is arrested for illegal activity.

You've also misquoted the Fifth Amendment. There ain't nothing in there about punishment. Perhaps you were thinking about the Eight Amendment and just got the number wrong?

You did get the Sixth Amendment kinda correctly (one outta three ain't good). But the trial doesn't occur in the street at the time of the arrest. It occurs later in a courtroom.

California law requires that the arrestee be informed of the charge he/she is arrested for. There is no requirement to reveal the information forming the basis for the arrest.

Once an arrest is made, and he arrestee remain in custody, there must be a Gerstein Hearing held within 48 hours. A Gerstein Hearing is ex parte and typically conducted by reviewing a declaration filed by the arresting officer. A judge is required to make an independent determination that there was probable cause for the arrest for the defendant to remain in custody. Some news media organizations have successfully obtained the declarations under the FOIA (for federal cases) and comparable state Public Records Act(s). That's really the first opportunity for the public to learn the basis for an arrest.
 
Also you keep citing California law when the state mentioned is Oregon.
Also if you want to keep excusing away the rights of citizens go right ahead. I’m done.
 
The federal government has the responsibility to and the authority to protect federal property. That is just a non political fact. How it is done is an opinion.
 
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You seem to be the only one saying he was arrested.

ETA: ok, Blnt4rcetrauma said it too. But why?. The article doesn't say he was arrested . Only detained.

This should explain it:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/arrest

They took the person off the street, against their will, and placed them in custody, under color of law. That’s an arrest. “Detained” is a nice way of saying “arrested.”
Also, the headline of the article mentions “Portland federal arrests” so yeah the article labels the described events as arrests.
 
Also you keep citing California law when the state mentioned is Oregon.
Also if you want to keep excusing away the rights of citizens go right ahead. I’m done.
You're right. The reason I qualify many of my postings is because that's where my experience was gained. The laws vary from state to state and I wish to ensure that folks understand the distinction when I make a point.

For the record my LE experience was gained in Alaska, California, and in federal service with the majority of my time in California.

No one is "excusing away the rights of citizens." But it is very important to know what those rights are, and what they are not.
 
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Thank you for your many years of service. We need to be able to have a dialogue and ensure that people can have civil conversations again in this country. Yes people destroying property need to be held accountable but also we need those who we as citizens entrust to hold our very literal lives in their hands, to be able make the right calls when it matters the most.
 
Avoiding the political mess completely.

A few years back my HR manager called me to the side for a couple minutes after a delivery truck backed in and the driver asked to see the plant manager. The back door opened and suddenly a dozen or so heavily armed and armored US Marshall Service guys quickly moved into the plant and detained one of our employees. At least one vest said FBI. They served his arrest warrant and he went for a ride. He was back at work by the end of the day, but he did miss work a few times handling his legal matters. So, yes, absolutely the feds can make arrests outside of federal property.
 
First, can someone outline the difference between long detentions (restrained, transported to a building for hours and hours) and arrests? I've never seen a non-arrest police detention in the US that lasted past the scene. Transport always first means arrest. Can they just "detain" you for... ever?


Then: the directly-related issue that has been raised (google it, many, many articles detailing this) is that it seems no one, at the time or afterwards, is able to challenge or even discern the basis for arrest, or even if the arresting officer indeed has jurisdiction, authority, or is a law enforcement officer.

The Federal officers/agents involved in these are not identified even by agency much less individually, as well as not revealing to the arrestee or anyone else who they are or what the charge is, on paper or verbally. So there's no clear way to follow up on anything much less be sure you are being arrested on legal authority at the time.

We're used to seeing a police car, a guy with a name tag, patch for agency, in big cities other marks for which division/precinct. Paperwork is done. But if none of that, then are we allowed (legally: swear I am on topic) to challenge the arrest (on any part of it), at any time?

If so, how?


There are substantial differences between an investigative detention and an arrest. Some legal authors like to present the question as binary - a person is either under arrest, or they are free to leave. The case law really doesn't support that conclusion, but rather presents three cases: 1) A person is free to leave, 2) A person is detained and not free to leave, but is not under arrest, or 3) A person is under arrest.

The big distinction is when does an investigative detention become an arrest. To make an investigative detention, an officer must have reasonable suspicion that the detainee is involved in illegal activity. Reasonable suspicion is a lower standard than is probable cause. The investigative detention authority was first recognized by the Supreme Court in Terry v Ohio. You'll commonly see these referred to a "Terry Detentions" or Terry Stops." Subsequent case law has held that the period of detention may not exceed the purpose of the detention, and that the officer must diligently pursue the investigation without a break. Most of the cases involved detentions ranging from eight minutes to two hours. If the results of the investigation provide probable cause for an arrest, and the officer has statutory authority to make the arrest, an arrest can be made. If the investigation fails to provide probable cause, then the subject must be released.

There are two good teaching cases, that both came down from the Supreme Court during the Ferguson riots. Both dealt with traffic stops, and brief investigative detentions under very similar conditions, and the court came to opposite decisions:

In Rodriguez v U.S. the defendant was stopped for traffic violations. The officer formed a suspicion that there were drugs in the vehicle and requested a drug detection dog to the scene. The officer completed the traffic citation and the detained the defendant for eight minutes until the drug dog arrived. The drug dog alerted on the vehicle (providing probable cause for the search) and the defendant's dope was recovered. The court held that there was no investigative activity occurring during those eight minutes and therefore there was no basis to detain the defendant and the recovery of the dope was the product of an illegal detention.

In U.S. v Sharpe, the defendant was observed by a DEA agent driving a truck, and with another car that appeared to be travelling in concert with the truck. The agent requested assistance from local LEOs who initially stopped the car, and who located and stopped the truck some distance away. The DEA agent first contacted the driver of the car, conducted his field investigation without interruption and subsequently arrested the driver for possession of a couple bales of marijuana. The agent then immediately proceeded to the location of the truck stop, arriving about 40 minutes after the stop. He conducted a field investigation at that scene and recovered a bunch of bales of marijuana from the truck. The Supreme Court upheld the resulting search and detention.

The key distinction between Rodriguez and Sharpe is that an eight minute detention with no investigative work being done was bad, and that a 40 minute detention during an uninterrupted investigation was good.

There is a lot of case law in the area. I've found this article to give a pretty good summary: https://casetext.com/analysis/searc...longed-duration-or-improper-nature-of-seizure
 
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Thank you for your many years of service. We need to be able to have a dialogue and ensure that people can have civil conversations again in this country. Yes people destroying property need to be held accountable but also we need those who we as citizens entrust to hold our very literal lives in their hands, to be able make the right calls when it matters the most.

You're right. Everyone benefits from a civil discussion. For the record, I tend to get really "nutted up" when folks misquote, or don't understand the Constitution. I took many oaths to support and defend the document and I take it quite seriously. I took the Constitutional Law class at the FBI's National Academy. The instructor was a Supervising Special Agent and a lawyer. He had a unique skill of "drilling down" into the Constitution and in citing cases where the courts have interpreted it. He carried a copy of the Constitution in his shirt pocket (He didn't really need to, he could quote it from memory). Many times in class he would pull it it out and quote specific language that would either support a student's statement, or correct such a statement. He taught me a lot, but not about what the Constitution says, I got that part from my initial training. He taught me a lot about to actually apply it in the streets at 2:00 in the morning.

Please see my posting above. It gives a pretty good summary of the existing rules on the subject.
 
This should explain it:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/arrest

They took the person off the street, against their will, and placed them in custody, under color of law. That’s an arrest. “Detained” is a nice way of saying “arrested.”
Also, the headline of the article mentions “Portland federal arrests” so yeah the article labels the described events as arrests.


That link doesn't explain or support what you're saying in this post. Rick does however, explain the difference and it's significant and not just a nice way if saying it as you portray.


That articles headline doesn't mention arrest. It's this.

It was like being preyed upon’: Portland protesters say federal officers in unmarked vans are detaining them


And thr article never said he was arrested either

So thats like 3 strikes against everything and anything you posted supporting what you're saying.
 
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